1912, '13, '14 body changes

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gorthy57
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1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by gorthy57 » Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:06 pm

I'm rescuing a '13 touring body that needs some woodwork addressed and all the upholstery and top. The owner has always characterized it as a late '13 because it has the rounded bottom doors like a '14. A supplier has said that he can't proceed with an order until he knows whether to use '13 dimensions or '14's. Unfortunately, he doesn't know what dimensions on the body to measure and I don't have access to either an early square door body nor a later true '14. I'm stuck needing to know if the changed-over late bodies were exactly the same as the '14's or were there other details that pertained only to the late '13 transitional bodies. Can anybody tell me how anything on a transitional round-bottom-door touring body from late 1913 differs from its successor in 1914?
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Scott_Conger
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:29 pm

Steve

Model Years changed around August of each year, so a "late '13" is a 1914 body. Consistent with that, I expect that the front windshield folds "in" and the side support rods are elbowed "outward" to let the upper pane swing in and clear the support rods.

I cannot tell you what wood to order, but that body style is 1914 regardless of when it was fabricated.

In any event, whatever wood you purchase will need to be hand fit in many places, so don't expect a kit that shakes out of the box. Rewooding is work.

From what little can be discerned from your photos, you may wish to simply fabricate what you need and keep as much original wood as possible, since rewooding entails pulling nails and removing metal body panels to properly access many if not most of the joints. Reiterate: Rewooding is work!
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Topic author
gorthy57
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by gorthy57 » Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:57 pm

Scott, you're right on as to the preservation of the serviceable wood already in place (and enclosed in an outside finish I'm trying to preserve.) I avoided using the term restoration to reflect the fact that I'm working toward repair and rejuvenation, and not a prize winning restoration. Almost all of the structural wood is still intact and usable, the most serious need is the steam bent tack strips around the front and rear seat tubs, and replacing some screws with bigger ones to buy back some strength in various joints.One of the best tools I've found for dealing with wood that has seen better days, but isn't ready for the stove, is Minwax Penetrating Wood Preservative. It sooks deep into wood's surface and flashes off into a plasticized version of the softening wood. The wood work doesn't put me off, I've done them before, but the kit supplier was related to upholstery...the 1912 style square door body is different than the 1914 round bottom door body, even to the dimensions of the seat-back cushions. That being the case, I'm reluctant to order a kit for either style without knowing some more about any other differences there might be and whether any of the '12 dimensions got carried forward into a transition version of the '13. I think you're right about the changeover to the '14 body...I'm just not quite confident enough to bet the price of a kit on it yet.

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Mark Gregush
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:00 pm

What Scott says re any re-wooding. Unless there is a lot of rot, re-wooding just to re-wood would be a waste of time and money. For nail holes, do the old toothpick/glue trick to fill them in.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Hap_Tucker
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Hap_Tucker » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:36 pm

Steve,

It looks like you have a great start on a T. As others have said, don’t rewood the body if you don’t need to.
It looks like this is your first time posting on the forum or perhaps the first time you have posted as gorthy57. Either way, welcome! If you let us know a little more about your background it could help us answer your questions a little better. Is this your first T? Is it your first antique car that has the wood frame with the metal panels tacked onto the wood?

From the 4 photos posted it is clear you do NOT have a 1912 or 1913 style body. And since a 1909 to 1925 touring body will fit fine on any 1909 to 1925 frame (with the exception of the 1911 torpedo roadster and 1911 open roadster which have a frame designed for the firewall to be 2 inches further back) for the upholstery – you want it to fit the body and not necessarily the year of the engine in the car or the year the chassis was sold etc.

Some additional photos showing more of the outside of the body to confirm the shape of the rear quarter panel would help narrow the search to only 1914. Also include the front part of the body. I believe it is a rectangular wooden firewall body – but a clear picture showing that would make us certain of it (old eyes).
it appears you have a 1914 style body (although if you have a rounded bead on the rear seat quarter panel for a round curved fender it could be a 1915 or even later rear panel. Sorry I’ve looked but haven’t found a good photo of that and I need to get up early tomorrow.

I was really surprised to see the metal seat cover over your gas tank area. I hope to discover more about that.
You may also want to look and see if there is a body identification stamp on your car’s body. For details on where to look, please see the Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html

From the link at:
https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc13.htm
It has:

JUL 1, 1913 Acc. 575, Letter 431, Ford Archives
Many notes on 1914 Touring body which would seem to indicate that this body was now used in production.

So, a Ford with a 1914 body could easily have been sold in or after Jul 1913. And the open body cars continued to be sold with the 1914 style bodies into calendar year 1915.

My current guess is 1914 for the body– but from 4 photos and not knowing the history of the car – that could easily be off. We looked at one 1915 touring that had never gone more than 50 miles from the original owner’s home town. It was a 1915 except someone had replaced the 1915 rear seat section with a later 1921-ish to 1925 rear seat section. It did fit, but was not original to the car or body. It had likely been converted to a pickup for part of its life and the turned back into a touring car.

Good luck with your car. I’m sure the folks here can help you narrow down the date range. Sharing a few more photos of the over all body would be helpful to me.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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gorthy57
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by gorthy57 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:32 am

Hap, thanks for the response. I agree with all you said, but from what I've read, the body change came about in mid to late 1913 because of the touring's propensity to break in two below the back doors. Since that weakness had been there since the git-go, somebody finally woke up and said let's put some strength back there even though it wasn't time for the '14 models to come out. Rolling change. I expect to confirm somehow that the changeover resulted in the early introduction of the '14 style body and was unchanged when the new model came out. It only makes sense to continue with the upgrades as introduced in '13.
A little background...I'm a lapsed MTFCA member who just re=enrolled so I could whine to you guys about my need for informalion. I've got two T's, a '15 touring and a '12 speedster. I've rewooded or repaired wood in about six cars over the years including our two cars.The '13 I'm working on belongs to a lifelong friend who first restored it in about 1950. He just recently got it back after it had passed through multiple hands, all of whom managed to lose various parts. He kind of jumped the gun and got the body painted before I came on board to fix up and tighten up the framing. The paint is pretty nice so I'm not ripping and tearing.
The body is definitely pre-15. It has the square firewall with no cowl, the straight body line on the rear quarters for the flat fenders, the long door handles that pivot in the middle of the latch plate and actuate vertically etc. As for the metal gas tank lid, that's one I had in my goodie pile and tried it out to verify it's
model T. Won't be in the final version if it's not right.
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Wayne Sheldon
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:27 am

People that know more than I do have said that although the 1913 style touring car body may have continued showing up through about August of 1913, many touring cars were getting the improved 1914 style bodies through most of July. There has been some empirical evidence of a few even from late June of 1913, but I don't know if I believe that or not. (Always possible for engine changes causing serial number changes muddying the waters?) 1914 style beginning in July 1913 has been supported by some archive records, or so I was told by a better than I researcher a few years ago.

For whatever it is worth.


Drkbp
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Drkbp » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:06 am

Steve,
Who made the body?

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KWTownsend
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by KWTownsend » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:04 pm

Steve-
I'm confused about a couple of things on the body.
1) As Hap pointed out the curved fender bead on the rear quarter panel would be 1915 or later.
2) The heel panel "floorboard" and seat cushion retainer looks to be stamped from one piece. In 1914 the heal panel was a separate piece from the floor part and the seat cushion retainer. I believe the that heel panel is 1915-16 or later.

Of course some body pieces can we changed out. The bodies on my 1919 and 1915 both have some mis-matched parts.
Are the front doors true 1914 doors? They are straight and have no "curve" like 1915-1925 doors.

-Keith


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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:15 pm

hmmmm...I missed the curved rear fender bead and still couldn't see it until I changed the angle of my computer screen!

that's a good or lucky catch. Doesn't matter...it got caught!
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

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Topic author
gorthy57
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by gorthy57 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:14 pm

Gents, what you're seeing in that side view is the arc of the fender line going up the front of the fender. When it gets to the top, it goes flat horizontal toward the back. I can get a better picture tomorrow if you want. Wouldn't be a '15 with a square firewall like this one has...


Scott_Conger
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:13 am

Well, errors of identification are prone to be committed in the absence of seeing things first hand.

I think you've got the depth of experience and ownership of these things to know what is what, and where you may have questions, the MFTCA on-line encyclopedia is an excellent resource to fill in the voids

It sounds like you have what you think you have: a 1914 model made in the later portion of 1913, and as such, it is exactly what it is supposed to be.

I think it is going to be a nice project with a bit of a challenge to maintain that nice paint

To your original question as to "what year body should I purchase wood for", given that a "1913" body has square doors going down to the dust aprons (and the body framework is consistent to support that configuration), and a "1914" body has rounded doors (and the body framework is consistent to support that configuration), I would believe it is safe to say, that when purchasing wood, that it NOT be for a 1913 body. I would believe that 1914 would be correct, but plan on minor-to-extensive modifications to a number of pieces of wood. These bodies all had minor structural differences between manufacturers, despite having identical outward appearances. I had a '23 runabout that needed full rewooding. I purchased just a door kit to see the quality of the product. I was very disappointed and based on that minor purchase, made every stick of the thing myself...and found it to be just as easy as trying to make ill-fitting wood "fit".

Best of luck on your project and post pix periodically
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Original Smith
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Original Smith » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:06 pm

There was a discussion several weeks ago on late 1913 bodies, with the 1914 style door handles. Is the photo above with the late door handle yours?


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gorthy57
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by gorthy57 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:41 pm

O-Smith, I can’t figure out how to access the picture you refer to. I’ll have to look at the encyclopedia to learn the difference between ‘13 latches and ‘14’s…i didn’t know there was a difference. These ones appear to me to be correct, actuating up and down rather than in and out as later years.

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Hap_Tucker
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by Hap_Tucker » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:38 pm

Steve,

You have some really great looking Model Ts!

Larry & Steve,

Hopefully this will be some help on your door latch discussion:

Below is a 1913 style door latch from the article Larry Smith put together for Bruce McCalley when he was the editor of "The Vintage Ford" also on page 196 of Bruce McCalley's "book "Model T Ford."
1913 door latch - Larry Smith.JPG
Steve, the latch you posted from your 1914 body is shown below. It is one of the styles used 1914-1916ish.
1914 style door latch.JPG
1914 style door latch.JPG (17.13 KiB) Viewed 1158 times
Steve, I agree with Keith who said:

[Your photo shows] The heel panel "floorboard" and seat cushion retainer looks to be stamped from one piece. In 1914 the heal panel was a separate piece from the floor part and the seat cushion retainer. I believe the that heel panel is 1915-16 or later.

Below is your photo that shows that.
Fron seat heel board.JPG
Fron seat heel board.JPG (15.94 KiB) Viewed 1158 times
I'm sure you will be able to sort it out and we may even discover that Ford did somethings we previously were not aware of.

I don't think you have a 1913 with a transitional body. I believe you have what would be called a 1914 model year car produced in the later part of 1913 (assuming the other parts correspond to that). Similar to many cars today, the 2023 model are already being sold even though it is still 2022.

Due you know of anyone else other than your friend that uses the term "1913 transitional body" to describe the car or other cars like that? Ford did not exactly use a model year but rather made running changes through out the year. And in most cases there would have been some overlap when both the older style 1913 bodies and the newer style 1914 bodies may have been built and sold at the same time. My favorite example of Ford's overlap with older and newer parts/designs is that Ford continued to produce both the two-valve cover and the single valve cover engine blocks -- with about 6 months of overlap.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Topic author
gorthy57
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Re: 1912, '13, '14 body changes

Post by gorthy57 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:33 pm

Thanks so much, gentlemen.I appreciate your knowledge and attention to my project. I've gotten just what I'd hoped for which was a clear understanding of where this body fits in the continuum. The '12/'13 and earlier latches weren't even on my radar...never messed with something that old. That heel panel is going to be a cut-down donor for the front seat...looking something like original.
Sure do appreciate your help! And thanks for the kind words about our T's. They represent time with my dad from the time I was born. We were partners on some of both of them.
Steve Gorthy Roseburg, Oregon

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