3:1 gearing

[Will]

I know this topic has been brought many times in the past but I thought I would look for your opinions. Here in Florida it's mainly flat land in any direction. My car has a high compression Z head and was rebuilt about 14 years ago with all new Stipe touring cam and crankshaft. I also have a Ruckstell rear. I'm still looking for someone to install a new Warford transmission for me. There are plans in the future to move to Pennsylvania where there will be hills and some very steep. Do you guys feel that with the Warford transmission and the Ruckstell rear it would allow enough gearing to sustain 3:1 rear differential gearing even if I encounter hills in Pennsylvania or just stick to the warford transmission and scrap the 3:1 idea. I'm leaning towards the the scraping idea. I'm just thinking at this point.

[TXGOAT2]

A KC Warford offers under, direct, and overdrive. That, a Ruxtell, and a standard axle should cover most any likely operating situation with a standard axle ratio. A performance cam will work against low end torque, to a degree, but with many gears to choose from, that should be no problem. A very high top gear would probably be a good deal less useful in Pennsylvania than in Florida. A stock T engine develops maximum torque around 1400 RPM. With a performance cam, both the maximum torque and horsepower RPM will be somewhat higher. A high gear that is too high could actually limit performance at road speeds. If you have an idea what your engine's torque and horsepower curves are, you can look up the various gear ratios you'd have and calculate the road speed ranges where the various gears and gear combinations would be most useful. If you have a closed car or carry a substantial load, you'd probably want to stay away from 3:1 gears.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I know this topic has been brought many times in the past but I thought I would look for your opinions. Here in Florida it's mainly flat land in any direction. My car has a high compression Z head and was rebuilt about 14 years ago with all new Stipe touring cam and crankshaft. I also have a Ruckstell rear. I'm still looking for someone to install a new Warford transmission for me. There are plans in the future to move to Pennsylvania where there will be hills and some very steep. Do you guys feel that with the Warford transmission and the Ruckstell rear it would allow enough gearing to sustain 3:1 rear differential gearing even if I encounter hills in Pennsylvania or just stick to the warford transmission and scrap the 3:1 idea. I'm leaning towards the the scraping idea. I'm just thinking at this point.

Will, I run a 3:1 ratio Ruckstell in my '09, '14, and '15. These cars have toured extensively including out in S. Dakota, in the New England states, the '14 Salesman's car in the mountains around Luray, and most recently with the HCCA bunch in Limerick, PA with my 1909 Tourabout. My engines have the 280 camshafts, high compression heads, and such. The people that know me and have toured with us will tell you that I have absolutely no problem maintaining pace in any of my cars. You shouldn't have any issues either.

The one thing that I would suggest you think about is that if you tend to tour with the same people, then I like to have the same combinations as they do. I have a friend or two that have the Layne transmissions, and when we are on long hard pulls, we are always shifting at different times which can cause people behind you to suddenly slow down unnecessarily due to your downshifting. If everyone has the same ratios and similar engine builds, then everyone in the group downshifts at nearly the same time going up the hills.

[George House]

Yeah, I’d scrap the 3:1 ring and pinion idea too. Get Gator Gould in southern AL to install the KC Warford. It’s overdrive along with a standard T rear end + engine performance additions you’ve already made will give you much high speed thrill. Plus, with Ruckstell engaged and KC in low, you’ll be able to parade in Model T high about 4 MPH.

[ModelTWoods]

I know this topic has been brought many times in the past but I thought I would look for your opinions. Here in Florida it's mainly flat land in any direction. My car has a high compression Z head and was rebuilt about 14 years ago with all new Stipe touring cam and crankshaft. I also have a Ruckstell rear. I'm still looking for someone to install a new Warford transmission for me. There are plans in the future to move to Pennsylvania where there will be hills and some very steep. Do you guys feel that with the Warford transmission and the Ruckstell rear it would allow enough gearing to sustain 3:1 rear differential gearing even if I encounter hills in Pennsylvania or just stick to the warford transmission and scrap the 3:1 idea. I'm leaning towards the the scraping idea. I'm just thinking at this point.

Will, I run a 3:1 ratio Ruckstell in my '09, '14, and '15. These cars have toured extensively including out in S. Dakota, in the New England states, the '14 Salesman's car in the mountains around Luray, and most recently with the HCCA bunch in Limerick, PA with my 1909 Tourabout. My engines have the 280 camshafts, high compression heads, and such. The people that know me and have toured with us will tell you that I have absolutely no problem maintaining pace in any of my cars. You shouldn't have any issues either.

The one thing that I would suggest you think about is that if you tend to tour with the same people, then I like to have the same combinations as they do. I have a friend or two that have the Layne transmissions, and when we are on long hard pulls, we are always shifting at different times which can cause people behind you to suddenly slow down unnecessarily due to your downshifting. If everyone has the same ratios and similar engine builds, then everyone in the group downshifts at nearly the same time going up the hills.

Brent, I wish that you'd have offered your opinion when I asked the same question earlier this year. I had a Ruxtell, already rebuilt with 3 to 1 gears that I was going to put under my 27 T coupe with Prus head and Stipe cam. Almost, if not everyone who responded, said go back to standard 3.63 to 1 gearing. Now, the deal is done and gearing has been changed. I don't want to pay to change it back.

[TXGOAT2]

A '27 T coupe is rather heavy with a large frontal area. I'd be leery of putting a 3:1 under one, especially if I had 3 gearboxes to play with and at least one overdrive ratio.

[TXGOAT2]

It's worth noting that Montana 500 cars average well over 50 MPH on the open roads of Montana with stock gears and no auxiliary transmissions or axles, and near-stock engines.

[Will]

My 1919 Touring with stock gearing likes it around 30 to 35mph and doesn't run warm, Anything over that and she starts to run hot, Not to hot but warmer than it dose at 35mph. At those speeds the engine feels right. I'm assuming that with an overdrive transmission it should run around 40 to 45mph at the same RPM. Where I'm at here in Florida most of the roads I travel are straight as a string so I was hoping to gain another 10+ MPH

[TXGOAT2]

My 26 roaster runs fine at 40-45 MPH in blistering Texas heat with a stock rear axle. It has a Berg's flat tube radiator.

Any running temperature up to about 200 F is fine. You may have radiator problems, or perhaps timing is a little late, or something is dragging. Even a little valve leakage will raise operating temperatures at higher speeds. A T will not circulate much coolant at engine temperatures below about 180 F. It is normal for the engine to run hotter at higher speeds and loads and on hotter days, but it should not boil over. A water pump, if present, that is not in good condition can cause overheating. In my experience, a water pump is not needed even in 105 F temperatures at a sustained 45 MPH.

[TXGOAT2]

Many temperature gauges are inaccurate.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I know several people that run a good overdrive on top of three to one rear end gears, and they love it, in speedsters and racing cars with low wind resistance and lighter weight. I would NEVER recommend a significant overdrive over three to one gears for a stock-ish full body car.
For a full-body car, three to one gears and a Ruckstell should be a great combination for most people in most non-mountainous areas. If, however, one is like me and enjoys a little more in the gearing choices, as well as a slightly higher top gear? Then a U-D-O auxiliary transmission with 3.63 rear end gears is a great way to go. The overdrive is higher than the three to ones, with direct and 3.63s a great all around ratio. The underdrive works well for steep hills and parades.
Adding a Ruckstell into that mix is not necessary, however, it can be quite handy sometimes. The quick positive shift is helpful when in overdrive and a need to slow down for a few seconds or a bit of a hill might make it necessary. The overdrive and Ruckstell (low) combined gearing is somewhat lower than the rear end ratios run straight through. But for added braking or needed performance (or easing the crankshaft's burdens?) with a couple quick shifts is a wonderful option. I have had a couple models Ts with that full package and loved it!

[Will]

I also have a Bergs flat tube, Its the best thing I feel Iv ever put on my T. I wish he would go back to making radiators as he did a great job. No water pump on this car. The engine was rebuilt about 14 years ago with maybe 600 or 700 miles. I'm running an Anderson timer and I clean and grease it every time I go out. I haven't needed to replace the timer in a very long time. Coils are courtesy of the coil dr but they were done around 8 years ago and I have Strob O Spark that I keep them tuned with. I'm very careful with band adjustment and I clean and pack the front wheel bearings every year. I used the method that Steve Jeff had put on the web. I keep the tires at 55psi. I just put on two new Blockleys on the front. I insure that the U joint and bearing are well greased every time I go out. I'v had her up to 40mph but I don't like the feel of the engine at that speed. I think what I might do is keep the original gearing for right now and see how it dose with the aux transmission. If I can get the extra 10mph I'm looking for then I will keep it the way it is. If not then I will cross that road then. Someone mentioned Gater Gould for the transmission, I will call him tomorrow. I was hoping to not have to go that far away for the job but it may come down to it. I know he does very good work and he knows Model T's.

[TXGOAT2]

I forgot to mention that my car has aluminum pistons and the engine is balanced. Crankshaft is stock. The engine runs close to 2,000 RPM at 50 MPH, which is on the high side. It runs close to 1800 at 45 MPH with 4.40/4.50 X 21 tires on wire wheels and seems happy doing it. Speaking of wheels and tires, out of true or out of balance tires and wheels can raise a lot of ruckus at higher speeds, and a defective u-joint can raise Caine and eat power. My car has a stock magneto, generator, and red top battery. In my opinion, if you want to run over 45 to 50 MPH on any sustained basis, you need a counterbalanced crankshaft.

[TXGOAT2]

Your car might perform better at higher RPM with a good New Day timer. T's generally run better on magneto, too. An engine/transmission that is not well balanced will vibrate viciously at higher RPM and the vibration consumes power. Having your coils tuned on an ECCT can improve high speed performance significantly. A timer that is worn or in any way deficient will affect performance, especially high speed performance. Your timer might perform better with oil as opposed to grease. It's also very important that the engine gets enough fuel at sustained higher speeds and loads. If the engine is outrunning its fuel supply at higher speeds, it will lose power and run hotter.

[Allan]

A 3:1 rear end is used to give taller gearing on the flat. There is no point in having it at all if you have a KC Warford with an overdrive. Really, with a three speed KC Warford, the Ruckstel is also largely redundant. Who ever NEEDS, as opposed to WANTS, a 12 speed transmission in a T?

No-one has mentioned the seriously compromised braking when running any overdrive transmission. With a 3:1 You are stuck with it. With a KC Warford at least you can change down to standard Ford gearing and use the standard transmission brake. I took the 3:1 diff out of my speedster before I sold it to a novice driver. As light as it was, the 3:1 gearing was still pushing it under braking. If you must have a 3:1 gearset, I believe you must have auxiliary brakes.

I now run the Ruckstel from the speedster in my wide body roadster, with 3.25:1 gearing. This is a compromise from the long legs of the 3:1, with a less compromised standard braking system.

Others will have different perspectives.

Allan from down under.

[Will]

When I had my T rebuilt I had a new crankshaft installed I think it was counter balanced crankshaft at the time I think it came from New Zealand but don't quote me on that. As I mentioned it does have a Z head and aluminum pistons. I did have a modern carbon brush timer but the seal around the cam was seeping just a little causing the timer to not function right thus the reason for the Anderson timer Around 12 years ago while my car was at Gator Goulds place I had him install AC brakes for added stopping power. They have saved my bacon more than a couple of times. If I wanted to where would I send my car to to have it balanced or check the balance? I do not have a mag, I removed that a very long time ago when there was video on line of the remains of a mag coming apart and going through the hogs head and I replaced it with oil slingers. At the time while my car was at Gators I had him install an auxiliary outside line to the front main bearing. When I had the car rebuilt I wanted car a could I depend on and so far its never left on the side of the road. There is a great amount of information here on this forum and I greatly appreciate everyone's input.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

No-one has mentioned the seriously compromised braking when running any overdrive transmission. With a 3:1 You are stuck with it. With a KC Warford at least you can change down to standard Ford gearing and use the standard transmission brake. I took the 3:1 diff out of my speedster before I sold it to a novice driver. As light as it was, the 3:1 gearing was still pushing it under braking. If you must have a 3:1 gearset, I believe you must have auxiliary brakes.


Allan from down under.

Before heavy braking, shifting to Ruckstell low range gets back a lot of braking effort. This assumes, however, that you have the time to plan your heavy, (i.e. emergency), braking.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd put the Warford in and stay with the standard axle ratio. If you have a counterbalanced crankshaft and aluminum pistons and around 30+ horsepower, you could probably run about 55 MPH under good conditions in overdrive, provided the engine and transmission are in good order and you use appropriate lubricants, and the wheels and tires and entire chassis are in top condition. Aerodynamic drag goes up VERY rapidly as speed increases, and the power required to push the car at higher speeds goes up accordingly. Hills and headwinds could be expected to reduce speed. If you want to drive over 50 MPH on any regular basis, a T speedster or a Model A is a better choice.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Brent, I wish that you'd have offered your opinion when I asked the same question earlier this year. I had a Ruxtell, already rebuilt with 3 to 1 gears that I was going to put under my 27 T coupe with Prus head and Stipe cam. Almost, if not everyone who responded, said go back to standard 3.63 to 1 gearing. Now, the deal is done and gearing has been changed. I don't want to pay to change it back.

Terry, first things, ...I hope you are your wife are feeling better.

I don't have an answer for you regarding opinions since like you I sometimes ask for advice here and occasionally when I read some of the suggestions, I sometimes am left wondering and shaking my head at what I am reading. All I can tell you is that what I am looking for a sensible balance between performance and longevity out of my engines. If using a higher gear ratio helps me achieve that with minor trade-offs, then I have met my goals.

To elaborate, for me personally I want my Ts to be safe & reliable enough to run with the top 10% of the Ts on any given tour. As an engine rebuilder with a motorsports background, I also tend to focus on factors such as piston speed, volumetric efficiency, harmonics, rotating weights, etc. when I build my engines. Being cognizant of that, if I can produce the same performance at a lesser RPM, then the conventional wisdom is that longevity generally increases when an engine is operated at lesser RPMs. For that reason alone, a Ruckstell with a 3:1 ratio works for me on the tours and with the type driving I do with my cars. As a disclaimer, even though my cars are restored with the best components & craftsmanship that I can provide, all of my Ts typically run out of Steering first followed closely by Braking ability before they ever run out of Power. Because of that, I am acutely aware of what can happen when prudence is not focused on when driving these vehicles under certain driving conditions. Be content with your present ratio and enjoy it as-is.

[babychadwick]

When my dad built my speedster he built it to GO and he got the gearing right by using a 35 Ford granny installed backwards!!! In other words 3rd gear was direct, second overdrive, and first instead of being a super granny was a heck of a double overdrive. That setup was long gone decades ago so now I'm just running a ruxtel with 3:1. There will be times when the winds behind you and you wish you had that one last gear to drop it in, lower the rpm and cruise.

However, something not mentioned yet that needs to be addressed and may be even more important than brakes is STEERING. The T can get very squirrelly at speed ...

[speedytinc]

If you gonna go that fast cant the axle 1/2"-5/8". (As opposed to the stock 3/8")
That & the bushings all up to snuff will make her freeway stable to at least 70.
Down side is its a bit stiffer to steer @ low speed around town.
Get good @ down shifting for effective braking.

[TXGOAT2]

My car has a neatly adapted set of modern hydraulic shocks front and rear. I'm sure they contribute a lot to steering stability. I haven't checked the caster angle, but it has a lot of caster. It's very stable up to 50 MPH, which is as fast as I drive it. It has a '27 frame and the late spindles, 5:1 steering gears, Ford wire wheels, and balancing beads in the Lucas 4.40/4.50 X 21 tires.