Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
AdminJeff
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Stevenson
Location: CA
MTFCA Number: 50006
Board Member Since: 2017

Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:50 am

I've put a couple hundred miles on the new T motor so I changed the oil today and found these 3 little bits in the drain plug. They are all 0.036" thick, and magnetic, so it's not Babbitt. Any ideas? Other than that, it looked great.
Attachments
33CFDCCF-478A-47BE-A0DA-5900C495E1B6.jpeg
9592C7EF-AEF8-4EBB-8693-0B1E01A49EA7.jpeg
Assistant to the Grand Poobah MTFCA Site Admin
1921 Touring


Henry K. Lee
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN

Re: Found these in the oil change today

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:53 am

Jeff,

Just a dumb question. If you used the old oil pan that had the issue, could they have been lodged under the drain plate and held in state and missed? Just trying to help.

All the Best,

Hank


John kuehn
Posts: 558
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Found these in the oil change today

Post by John kuehn » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:38 am

If the bits are magnetic it could be the remains of the magnet that comes with the oil filter screen thats installed under the transmission cover. Just a guess but when you mentioned the bits are magnetic that’s what comes to mind. There are older posts about them coming loose from the screen. But again it’s just a guess.


mtntee20
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:51 pm
First Name: Terry & Sharon
Last Name: Miller
Location: Westminster, CO
MTFCA Number: 32583
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Found these in the oil change today

Post by mtntee20 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:51 am

You're going to have to define "magnetic".
1.) Meaning they are attracted by a magnet.
OR
2.) They are attracted to any ferrous (iron) material meaning they are a magnet or part of a magnet.

Not good to find these things in a fresh rebuild. Makes you think there were bad part installed.

Good Luck,
Terry

User avatar

Topic author
AdminJeff
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Stevenson
Location: CA
MTFCA Number: 50006
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Found these in the oil change today

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:15 am

mtntee20 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:51 am
You're going to have to define "magnetic".
1.) Meaning they are attracted by a magnet.
OR
2.) They are attracted to any ferrous (iron) material meaning they are a magnet or part of a magnet.
Not good to find these things in a fresh rebuild. Makes you think there were bad part installed.
Good Luck,
Terry
My bad... it was late when I posted this. They are attracted by a magnet, so they are ferrous. Not lead or Babbitt.

And it's certainly possible they were lodged under the lip at the bottom of the pan. There was crap everywhere from the last disaster. I cleaned it well but it's possible I missed them. the plug was in when I cleaned the pan out.

Jeff
Assistant to the Grand Poobah MTFCA Site Admin
1921 Touring

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
Location: Ramona, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Found these in the oil change today

Post by TonyB » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:31 am

I’m trying to determine what round bits 0.036” diameter could be..... That is about the diameter of the wire I use for locking nuts but the picture seems to show something solid rather than being flexible like wire.
I can’t think of any pin used in the motor that is 0.036” diameter. I guess it could be some spurious “improvement”
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

User avatar

Topic author
AdminJeff
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Stevenson
Location: CA
MTFCA Number: 50006
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Found these in the oil change today

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:15 am

TonyB wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:31 am
I’m trying to determine what round bits 0.036” diameter could be..... That is about the diameter of the wire I use for locking nuts but the picture seems to show something solid rather than being flexible like wire.
I can’t think of any pin used in the motor that is 0.036” diameter. I guess it could be some spurious “improvement”
The measurement is the Thickness of the steel.
Assistant to the Grand Poobah MTFCA Site Admin
1921 Touring


It's Bill
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:41 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Hoffer
Location: Newtown, PA
MTFCA Number: 32571
MTFCI Number: 24364
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Found these in the oil change today

Post by It's Bill » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:19 pm

Piston ring pieces from a long ago quick (careless) rebuild? Any gouges in the cylinder walls from a broken ring? Just guessin' Bill

User avatar

Topic author
AdminJeff
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Stevenson
Location: CA
MTFCA Number: 50006
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:30 pm

When the last failure happened it was epic. The triple gear bushings were so far gone that the gears were tilting into the reverse drum. That eventually ground the lip on that drum to 36 thou which turns out to be the magic snapping point for the whole lip, which then ended up in the bottom of the pan, and some lodged in the recesses of the oil drain area. My vigorous cleaning didn’t get those three bits out. They are also cast iron as they break apart when i took a pair of pliers to them.

Thanks to Robert Weitzel for leading me here!
Attachments
0C83A1A3-1D61-48B1-9028-34D306C08426.jpeg
2540D863-C854-46C9-8B21-D5363A404737.jpeg
39D97D39-51FC-4294-A507-3AC731FA3843.jpeg
Assistant to the Grand Poobah MTFCA Site Admin
1921 Touring


Henry K. Lee
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:55 pm

Told Ya!!!! LOL!

Back to washing dishes for you.

Hank

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:46 pm

You did replace that drum, didn't you?
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

Topic author
AdminJeff
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Stevenson
Location: CA
MTFCA Number: 50006
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:48 pm

Henry K. Lee wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:55 pm
Told Ya!!!! LOL!
Back to washing dishes for you.
Hank
Hank, No kidding! Let this be a lesson on really cleaning those nether regions for all of us.
And Steve, now that I'm a model T owner I'm a cheapo. So, After I welded the surface cracks I took a file and resurfaced that drum. It's good as new. I reused the triple gear pins too. :lol:
Assistant to the Grand Poobah MTFCA Site Admin
1921 Touring

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:51 am

Uh-oh. Good luck with that drum. I had a reverse drum with a damaged lip. I ground that smooth and figured it would be OK. Nope.

IMG_2498 copy.JPG
IMG_2500 copy.JPG
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

Bill Robinson
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Robinson
Location: Salty Bottom, AL
MTFCA Number: 22487
MTFCI Number: 17887
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by Bill Robinson » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:42 am

I knew those pieces looked familiar to me!
metal 002.jpg
Last edited by Bill Robinson on Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.


Graybeard77
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:06 pm
First Name: Clyde
Last Name: Gibson
Location: 1958 E Smith Springfield, Mo. 65803
MTFCA Number: 32266

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by Graybeard77 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:44 am

Last spring before going on the Florida tour and had a broken tooth from metal fatigue on a triple gear. I made the Florida tour without any trouble because of no hills. When I got home replaced thansmission. If your triple gears were that worn I would have replaced them. It is to much work to do over later. Good luck. Clyde


Henry K. Lee
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:47 am

Time to changed professions, Detective, Archeologist, Dish Washer! I am laughing very hard due to "Done That Before"!

Glad you found it Jeff, really makes you sleep better at night.

Hank, Still Laughing at Myself.

User avatar

Topic author
AdminJeff
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Stevenson
Location: CA
MTFCA Number: 50006
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by AdminJeff » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:30 am

Bill Robinson wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:42 am
I knew those pieces looked familiar to me!metal-002.jpg
Wow? Ok, I'm not alone here.

Clyde, Up to the point that one of the triple gear teeth actually broke, amazingly the car drove pretty well, and nobody could tell me what the rattle can noise was when going downhill (failing triple gear bushings). "Model T's just rattle" I kept hearing.

Here a little vid of what caused all this.
https://youtu.be/fS9wUhwuSV0

And I was kidding about reusing the drum... none if the drums or gears were usable from that trans.
I also used the needle bearing triple gear setup from Dan McEachern. He also gave me the prize for the most extreme wear he's ever seen on triple gear bushings. Kinda like getting the "client of the year" award from your lawyers office. Not a moniker to covet...

Jeff
Attachments
BDC662F3-379A-4594-BFA9-EE0F97236319.jpeg
6C6C5AC7-5C8D-4884-A56D-6D3092BA9F8A.jpeg
Assistant to the Grand Poobah MTFCA Site Admin
1921 Touring

User avatar

havnfun
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:27 am
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Kowalczyk
Location: - Nampa
MTFCA Number: 49558
MTFCI Number: 24878
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Mystery solved! Found these in the oil change today

Post by havnfun » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:30 am

Very interesting and educational topic, I followed along and had no idea until the mystery was solved.

Thnx everyone for the comments and Jeff for finally posting Mystery Solved...
Regards,
Joe Kowalczyk - 1923 Touring, 1913 Speedster, 1913 Runabout
Email: havnfun@cableone.net

(208) 870-3099

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic