Getting Rattles Back On The Road

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Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:34 pm

So about 3 and a half years ago my wife found a 1926 Touring for sale in the local paper. I went to look at the car and bought it. The guy showed me a video of the car running form the previous year. He said the the Clutch was stuck and that was why the rear wheel was now not moving. As I took a better look at it when I got it home I found that one of the triple gears was hitting the flywheel (I had posted about that here before). So I have to pull the engine. Life took over and I had to get a lot of other things done on my other cars as well as my garage. Now I'm able to have some time to get the car back on the road. So I'm going to try to document what I do here. That way you all can laugh, cry, and yell at me. Ha!! My daughter named the car Rattles. Not sure how long this is going to take but here goes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMjIHZjIv_0


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:47 pm

:lol: Robert! You just broke Rule #1! (Never leave the key or anything which can fall into the transmission when the cover is off). At least you have a retrieval strap for that key! :lol:

Seriously, once you're done with the engine and you're on the road, cover that hole everytime you walk away from it. You will be horrified by what can fall in and will reveal itself only upon engine start. :o

It looks like a great basis for lots of family fun. Good luck.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:54 pm

So today I got some parts off the car. I also had my daughter Angie with me to help.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:55 pm

Oh I know. I read the horror stories about what can fall in there. That's why I have the lanyard on there. After I made the video the cover went back on. Ha!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:01 pm

Angie working on the generator bolts. The book says to pry the gears apart when removing the generator. Is it going to be that hard to put the gears back together?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdGRVQ01fso

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:09 pm

So this is what I got done today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BopHyYvefpQ

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by CudaMan » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:05 pm

What a great name for a car! Glad you are making progress. :)
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by otrcman » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:23 pm

If I may make a suggestion, buy Angie a nice pair of mechanic's gloves. Attractive young ladies prefer to not have broken fingernails, bandages on fingers, etc.

For most aspiring young male mechanics, an injury is a badge of honor. Not so for young ladies.

And kudos for instructing your daughter about cars. And kudos for spending quality time with her.

Dick

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:44 pm

Ha! Thanks Dick. She has a pair of gloves. My daughter is the kind of kid who was overjoyed when she got to put her had in the grease to pack a wheel bearing on my 67 Charger. Ha!!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Angmar » Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:37 pm

Great job getting your daughter involved. Looking forward to seeing what comes of the tear down.
Still crankin old iron


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:07 pm

The triple gear pin must be broken in order for the gear to touch the flywheel like that :( Looks like a nice car otherwise

Stephen

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:19 am

I think the pin may be broken as well. We will have to see once I open up the engine.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:41 pm

Today I did a bit more work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv66GyP4WWA
IMG_3101.jpeg
Not sure if this is ok under the starter switch. Looks like it was getting a bit hot. Is this normal?
IMG_3101.jpeg
The are the plugs back to front Left to right. Any comments? Look normal? Looks a bit rich to me on two cylinders.
IMG_3101.jpeg
The oil line.

More to go.....
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IMG_3104.jpeg
IMG_3105.jpeg
Last edited by Mopar_man on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:55 pm

Re Sparkplugs

generally speaking, the front, #1 plug will run the coolest and rear #4 plug will run the hottest. It is the nature of the beast with respect to coolant flow.

That said, nearly every as-is car I've worked on, has cheap $2 paper gaskets at the intake/exhaust manifold glands. They invariably are deteriorated to the point of failure. It looks to me that you have an intake leak and to run, the carburetor is set to very rich to keep the car running. This results in two plugs running very lean and two plugs running very rich.

Use these: https://www.modeltford.com/item/3063-64.aspx if your exhaust manifold is straighte enough (it almost surely won't be), so if not, use these: https://www.modeltford.com/item/3063MC.aspx

If you want to have high probability of failure and warp the exhaust manifold further, use this: https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mode ... erial.html which of course you don't want to do..just wanted you to see what an inferior product looked like
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by John kuehn » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:56 pm

Starter switch doesn’t look bad to me. Pretty much normal. I bought some for spares at swap meets and they looked worse than that. What usually goes in T starter switches is not using a back up wrench or tightening the cables on the switch terminals to the point when you start breaking out the hard rubber insulators that’s on the bolt in the squared holes on switch frame.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:04 pm

Thanks Scott and John. I will get the correct gaskets for the intake and exhaust. Good to know that the switch is ok.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:40 pm

I just put an order in for a bunch of blots and odds and ends for the engine. Most of the bolts were the wrong length, etc. Got a question. Who makes the 1926 Water inlet with eccentric? I've seen several for sale with different prices. Some with the hardware some without.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:58 pm

Well so far today I got the plate mounted to the engine stand.
IMG_3110.jpeg
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:02 pm

So this is is what happened when I tried to use the Pack Nut Wrench. It was too small. I called the vendor I bought it from and he said it fit the nuts they had. He gave me the measurement and when I measured my Pack Nut it was bigger. I used a pair of channel locks and got it off ok. I also bought a new nut.

IMG_3109.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:50 pm

Robert

sometimes those repro wrenches need to be kissed on a belt sander or a grinding wheel. I have an original wrench which fit an old nut just fine, but because I tour and wanted to carry a wrench (and not an original pristine one) I bought a repro wrench. Wouldn't fit the nut. Huh. Ground the surface roughness off the jaws and everything was fine. Has seen a lot of rough use since then and is holding up fine.

FWIW.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:59 pm

I'll give some sanding a try on the wrench. I was able to get the steering column out today as well.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:08 pm

So this is what the valve spring area looked like.
IMG_3117.jpeg
IMG_3118.jpeg

Looks clean.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:11 pm

This is why you need to check your T all the time. They guy who put this car together neglected to put any cotter pins in and I found one of the bolts loose.
IMG_3119.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by wayne sheldon » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:02 pm

It looks like you have a pretty good handle on what a T is all about! Work seems to be going well, things looking pretty good (but that steering ball sure needs some good grease after a proper cleaning and fitting!), and progress is being made. And quality family time is a wonderful plus!
Good stuff! The satisfaction once you get to drive it is something to look forward to.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:07 pm

So today I got the engine ready to pull and it will not come apart at the 4th main. I think I'm answering my own question but is there a pin in that hole full of grease?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd1D6ZEdW4Y

IMG_3129.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:08 pm

Thanks Wayne. I've been reading about this stuff for the last 3 years and I finally got the time to get this done.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Dallas Landers » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:20 pm

Is the radious rod ball unhooked from the pan? Been there and forgot that detail.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by wayne sheldon » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:44 pm

The U-joint is supposed to just slip out from the back of the transmission. The hole in the U-joint ball is just for the grease from the grease cap in the ball clamp collar to get inside to grease the u-joint. There IS a pin to hold the U-joint onto the drive shaft. There are two small "bolt caps" (plugs?) behind the U-joint ball to access the pin holding the U-joint onto the drive shaft. The plugs must be removed, then the drive shaft rotated to line up the pin with the holes. The pin usually has to be partially drilled out before the remains of the pin can be driven out. The pin is supposed to be peened on both ends to keep from working loose and trying to cut the end of the torque tube off (seen it!).

Dallas L's suggestion is a good one! You might be amazed how many people have done that (Including me).
Another likely possibility is that the U-joint is simply stuck in the back of the transmission. They need to be greased, both when assembled and as maintenance. Sometimes they hydraulically seize and will not pull out. I have had ones so stuck I used jacks and/or come-alongs to force them out. DO NOT pull (push?) TOO hard, frames can be bent that way. But about fifty pounds of push (pull?) along with copious amounts of WD-40 (a MUCH better washing than lubricating product!) sprayed in as close to the U-joint's insertion can work near miracles.
Last edited by wayne sheldon on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:50 pm

Dallas!!! I think you hit it right on the head. Nope I did not detach the rod. That must be it. I'll hit it again tomorrow. So the pin I was talking about is meant to stay in place unless you are removing the U joint.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:11 pm

Yes, the pin holding the U-joint on the DS is farther back, behind the ball. As Wayne said, it has nothing to do with separating the U-joint from the transmission. That should just slide right out.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by RustyFords » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:40 am

I’m following along Robert.

Your situation reminds me of mine when I started on my first Model T 3 years ago. I wasn’t new to old cars but I was a novice at all things Model T.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Dallas Landers » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:01 am

Robert, its easy to miss. I pulled the body on my roadster to replace the frame a couple weeks ago and still missed it with the body off :oops:

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:57 pm

Well I got the engine out after work today!!!
IMG_3134.jpeg
IMG_3135.jpeg
When I took off the Rad Rod I found not cotter pins and different size springs. That's not good.

IMG_3133.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:01 pm

So now I can see two issues that I had known about . First the Mag Ring is the wrong year. That explains why my starter wouldn't come out.
IMG_3136.jpeg

Then I saw that one of the pins was broken on this triple gear. I hope that's the only issue..
IMG_3137.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by CudaMan » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 am

Looks like you're making good progress. Those wishbone ball cap studs/nuts need to be wired to each other, not cotter pinned. If you use cotter pins, the nuts will be retained on the studs, but the studs can still back out from the pan.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:06 pm

It looks as if the removable bands have been ground on for clearance sake. They were installed backwards.

If I am correct in the tangs having been ground back, you will want to a) locate new old bands and b) install them with the removable ears on the driver's side
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Banjoe » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:58 pm

Lots of great learning being absorbed by following your progress. Many thanks for starting such a fascinating discussion, Robert.
None of us is as smart as all of us.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:09 pm

Thanks Cudaman. I'll make sure I do that. I also will go over the safety checklist as well.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Well today I got the Pan off. here is a look inside.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpwDrVDo_No

As you can see the triple gear is jammed against the flywheel. The pan looks real clean. Some sludge in the bottom.
IMG_3138.jpeg
So I was told in my post that the bands were ground and needed to be replaced. I don't see any marks on them. Do they look ok?

IMG_3141.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:36 pm

They do in fact look fine...just installed backwards
Consider new lining material based on reverse band

Purchase Repairing And Restoring The Model T Ford Transmission and also do some searching on the MTFCA forum for discussions on triple pin bushing clearance. Reading the book and studying the volumes of info on the forum, you will find key things, like how to press out the pins without destroying the flywheel, and what sort of clearance the bushings should be to the pins. Yours were likely set too tight at the last rebuild. Finally, I'd strongly suggest you purchase new bushings from Bob's Antique Auto. They are the closest things to the correct material, and that is important. He supplies them to some, but not all other suppliers, and I don't know which is which, so stick with Bob's.

This is going to undoubtedly be a learning experience for you. Good luck and go slowly.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:29 pm

Thanks for the Info Scott!!!! I plan on replacing the lining as well as getting my bushings from Bob's. Everyone recommends him. I never knew there was a right and left for the bands.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:54 pm

OK let's play what the heck is this from? When I pulled the pan off I was careful to not turn the engine upside-down and I found this piece of metal.
IMG_3145.jpeg
IMG_3144.jpeg
If you expand the pictures you can see that it has a V shape in the metal. I looked at my ring gear and although some of the teeth weren't perfect there was no indication that it came from there. It was found in the transmission part of the pan. If you read above you will see that my Bendix was broken as well as the pin holding one of the triple gears.

Any guess???

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:26 pm

Well I answered my own question. In looking at the bendix there is a metal ring that is supposed to be attached to the gear that runs up and down the shaft. It is attached on a part of the gear with a V detent. It broke off from there. Happy to know where parts come from when they break.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 pm

So this is what I found in the oil pan. Not bad. A bit of oil sludge but not much gray Babbit juice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix2dPw6 ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:22 pm

So I got the transmission of the engine today.

The first thing I noticed was the safety wire was not connected that well.
IMG_3148.jpeg

I was now able to get in my head and see how this wrench is used.
IMG_3150.jpeg
IMG_3151.jpeg
This is my Transmission Selfie!
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:25 pm

So this is not the correct Mag Ring for a 26/7. Explains why I could not get my starter out.
IMG_3156.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:28 pm

So how do these Transmission bands look?

I plan on changing them since I have everything apart.
IMG_3154.jpeg
IMG_3153.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm

Appears to be a pre-starter mag coil ring, but not much earlier than '17. If it is in good condition, it would work fine. A large coarse rat-tail file would take care of the starter notch real quick! The notch doesn't need to be very deep, about a quarter of an inch. A lot of people however, would recommend getting a rebuilt coil ring for reliability reasons. The original cotton wrappings have a tendency to be somewhat rotten after nearly a hundred years. And churning oil can remove them resulting in a short in the windings.
Band linings look like they are almost due for replacement, so definitely, redo them at this time.
Check all the transmission parts carefully. Especially the drums and the flywheel around that broken gear pin!

As for the manifold nut. Those have been reproduced by several people/companies over the years. Several of them were made slightly over-size. So if it is too big for the standard wrench? Not surprising.

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Mopar_man
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:16 pm

Thanks Wayne. Always good to have a person with experience looking at what I'm doing. If anyone else sees something that I'm doing wrong please chime in. I was a Marine for 30 years so I've been yelled at my whole life. Ha!!!

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