Education on Warford transmissiion needed

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mgarrett
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Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by mgarrett » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:51 am

I'm a newbie to Warfords and know very little about them. I have the chance to buy an iron case Warford trans that is currently installed in a running Model T. The owner is removing it and going with a Ruckstell axle instead. I am going to take a look at it this weekend and would appreciate an education in what to look for/beware of before I purchase. Were there different gear ratios or were they all the same? If there were differences in ratios, were there any markings on the case to identify? Appreciate any input from the Warford gurus here on the forum.

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:08 am

Bearings can be expensive, last top shaft cost me over $500.00. Gears are more plentiful for cast iron models, ie eBay. Most important is setting the thrust at both top and bottom. Do not use paper gaskets at the bottom, but shellacked metal shims. I have copies of original manuals with the settings, etc.

Hope this Helps,

Hank


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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:09 am

You will, of course have to shorten your drive shaft, drive shaft tube, modify radius rods, and plan to fabricate a support for the Warford. They are heavy and the T engine is not happy for long with that weight hanging off of it unsupported.

If I was to go to the effort, I'd be installing a new aluminum Warford, with modern gearing and bearings, not an original that likely has significant wear and will likely be very noisy.

At the very least, drive the other fellow's car before it is removed and see how loud it is and if you can actually shift it on the fly.
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Mark Gregush
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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:10 am

If it is the cast iron 3 speed: Does it come with the coupler that mounts between the rear of the engine and transmission? How about the hanger, radius rods, driveshaft and tube?
If it is just bolted to the back to the transmission without the coupler in between, unless the input shaft on the Warford has been modified, there is a size difference between the hole in the transmission tail shaft and the square on the Warford input shaft. There was a guy on here in the last few months that was having an issue with that. The square hole in the output shaft got spun round and the car, she go no more because the fitment issues was not addressed at the time it was installed.
This is what the coupler would look like;
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 872#p74872
As Scott said, these units are a lot of weight just to hang off the back of the transmission without support. With the coupler it has to have the support at the rear, the coupler is flexible.
As far as noise goes, will it be going in open or closed car? Some people don't mind the sound others not so much.
RE the question about ratio's, as I recall all cast iron 3 speeds have the same gear ratio. Total gearing would depend on what you are running in the rear end. Here is a chart and install instructions when going in a TT;
http://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/default.htm
You will need to install outside brakes as there is a true neutral in the Warford and if you miss a shift, parking brakes are only going to help so much. Not trying to dis-sway you, but want to see you go into this with your eyes open. There is an art to shifting them and the suggestion to ether drive or go for a ride is a good idea if you can.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Adam » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:18 am

90% of the originals are worn out in some form or another and require work by someone with those skills. There are no new parts available. If you don't have the technical skills, you might want to consider a new kc warford. The new ones shift easy, work good, are quiet, and I believe there is a deal where they will modify your drive shaft for you. Originals are hard (or impossible) for the person of ordinary skills to shift on the fly without grinding gears or getting stuck in neutral. Getting stuck in neutral can be fatal if you don’t have excellent auxiliary brakes (and the brakes need to work in reverse too)...


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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Shane Lach » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:41 am

I purchased all the bearings and races from 3bgsupply.com for relatively cheap. $2-300 dollars I believe.

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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:03 pm

"I purchased all the bearings and races from 3bgsupply.com for relatively cheap. $2-300 dollars I believe."

Did that include the special tapered shaft lower case cluster gear bearing ???? I understand that bearing went obsolete in the 60's.


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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by mtntee20 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:56 pm

Mike,

If you choose to purchase that Warford, and it does NOT come with the engine to Warford adapter, I have a couple for sale if you need one.

Concerning shifting on the fly: Shifting is exactly the same as on modern vehicles NOT using the clutch during the shift. You have to reduce the rpm of the engine to match the gear ratio when UP shifting. You have to raise the engine rpm when DOWN shifting to match the rpm. Some will tell you to use the transmission clutch when shifting. This also works but is hard on the bands due to the mismatch of the rpm between the engine and drive line. The absolutely best time to shift is at a standstill. You will not be risking getting stuck in neutral without enough brakes to stop you.

There was a gentleman, on this forum, collecting information on Warfords such as serial numbers and gear ratios. He has found there are different ratios. The differences are very minor like just one tooth and appear to have been supplied from the factory as such. I have never heard or seen anything about cast iron Warfords having optional ratios. But you can never tell about 100 year old products.

I have a friend who has a new Layne Warford. It is everything it is said to be and he loves it. But, as with everything, it comes with a price tag and they will shorten your drive line, torque tube, and radius rods for free. Well, mostly free. You have to ship them on your own dime, but the service is free. If you choose to purchase the cast iron Warford, the seller may include the shortened items as they work ONLY with the cast iron Wafords. The new aluminum models require a different length of shortening.

Good Luck


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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Chris Haynes » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm

A Warford has overdrive and a Ruxtel is underdrive. What is the benefit of slowing your car down?


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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Shane Lach » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:38 pm

RajoRacer wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:03 pm
"I purchased all the bearings and races from 3bgsupply.com for relatively cheap. $2-300 dollars I believe."

Did that include the special tapered shaft lower case cluster gear bearing ???? I understand that bearing went obsolete in the 60's.
That was the only bearing I couldn't get. I had to pick through a couple warfords to find a good one.


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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by AZTerry » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:51 pm

Hello Mike,

I may be the person that Terry M was referring to. I have been running an Aluminum Warford for 15 years. Prior to installing my Warford I had several Warfords, aluminum and cast iron, available to me and I compiled some information. I have attached two PDF files that show the different gear ratio's and bearings of the different Warford's and the final drive ratio's using different ring and pinion gears. What I have observed is all original Warford's have the same direct and overdrive ratio's. But the original Aluminum and Cast Iron Warford's have different under drive ratio's and my guess is to accommodate the PTO option on the CI Warford. I will add at this point if you are going to run and original Warford unless you have a light car with a hot engine you will need 4:1 gears in the rear axle. I can provide more information later if requested.

(AZ) Terry
Attachments
Warford Final Gear Ratios.pdf
(51.06 KiB) Downloaded 30 times
Warford Bearings.pdf
(14.83 KiB) Downloaded 31 times

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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:34 pm

Thanks for the reply Shane - reason I asked was I rebuilt the late model C.I. Warford w/pto capability in my Gramps' TT back in the late 80's and that particular bearing I purchased from an old Model T guy in Seattle - cost me like $60 and I thought I was getting scalped !


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mgarrett
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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by mgarrett » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:49 pm

All great info from everyone...and much to consider. I'll take a look at it this weekend and report on my findings.

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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:51 pm

Great! Suggest just adding to this string, so we don't get lost on what we said. ;)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Education on Warford transmissiion needed

Post by SurfCityGene » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:56 pm

Mike, Let us know what you think after your ride. I can't imagine anyone would want to trade a Warford three speed for a Ruxtell. You should be able to get the driveshaft and rods like others have said since he'll need to replace those? The shifting does take a bit of practice like an old standard tranny in modern car with no clutching.

I would consider finding an alum one instead of the CI unit. Guys have mentioned the amount of wear on these used ones but they really are very durable simple and easily restored with the exception of the one center small bearing which does have a work around. I wouldn't be without my alum original Warford except maybe for a new Layne.
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