triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

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dobro1956
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triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:38 pm

I am building the speedster engine. I think I just dodged a bullet today ... Today I was riveting the ring gear bolts in place that hold the ring gear and the 16 spools that Im using for oil slingers. While riveting the bolts one of the triple gear pins fell out. I thought they were in good shape. No wear at all and no signs of looseness. So today I ordered the new triple gear pins, and hope the old ones were not already oversize. If they are then Ill find a good flywheel. Does anyone know the size of a stock triple gear pin where it fits the flywheel. ?? I know they are tapered, so it may be a trick to measure them ...

All this got me thinking. (dangerous). What if I had missed it and the pin backed out while running. It would have been a total loss. So is there any way the speedster guys running no magnets handle this problem. Or does everyone just "trust" the press fit. Im thinking of using a washer and bolt at each pin. A thick washer made like a fender washer will cover the end of the pin and keep it from backing all the way out. It does not have to hold anything, just stop it from backing out in case a pin worked loose. . I can use three washers, three bolts, held in place with "LockTite" and then safety wire the three bolt heads together. I will pay attention to the weight of the parts to keep everything in balance.

One of my pictures shows how Ford used the magnets to act as a safety. I have seen way too many loose triple gear pins to feel comfortable with no safety of some sort. This is my first engine with no magnets. So any help, ideas, information about how others may have addressed this problem ...
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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:55 pm

Capturing the pins with a large washer & bolt is one procedure - another which I use & prefer I and I believe to be the best is a collar available (is/was?) from Dan McEachern - no way anything is "coming from together" with one of his gizmos !

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:25 pm

OK you got my attention. Now how does it work. any pictures ....


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Dan McEachern » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:00 am

The stock pin diameter where it presses in the flywheel is 0.681" I don't recall the tolerance, as I'm not at the shop. We make an aluminum retainer plate that retains the triple gear pins when you remove the magnets from the flywheel. I just make a batch of them. PM if interested or dmcgears@yahoo.com. I may not answer for several days. Dan

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:35 am

Hi Dan, Sent you an e-mail ...


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Autie » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:44 am

If you have taken out the magnets, do you need a bolted washer or custom collar behind the triple gear pins, even though they are pressed in? Or is this just a precautionary measure to keep them from backing out, and not mandatory? P.S. How come I have a bad gut feeling?


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Mindless Automaton » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:18 am

Autie wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:44 am
If you have taken out the magnets, do you need a bolted washer or custom collar behind the triple gear pins, even though they are pressed in? Or is this just a precautionary measure to keep them from backing out, and not mandatory? P.S. How come I have a bad gut feeling?
Not mandatory.
But a collar ring would be nice.
Washers, less elegant and less balanced.

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by JohnH » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:19 am

This is a charming thought, having been driving around with no magnets since early 2010.
From everyone I talked to about installing oil paddles, and the instructions that came with them, no mention was made about the triple gear pins backing out. Too late now, I'm not removing the engine to deal with the possibility. But, if something does happen, I'll finally get to clean the congealed oil off the clutch discs.

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by George Mills » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:47 am

Back to your original question.

Here are the original factory dimensions and tolerances for the triple gear system parts as a reference.

Three points to consider before trying to interpret this drawing...

1- I don't think that the two pin suppliers today make pins to the original drawing specifications.

2- I have fully convinced myself that as surprising as it may seem, Ford DID hold transmission parts to the 4th decimal place on repeatability in manufacture and only used some 2/3 of that 4th digit range.

3- You'll notice a 'bullet rim' on the tail of a pin. This was apparently to seat lock the pin in the wheel. If someone tried to push a pin out into the gear side, it would have been tough, but if they just got a bigger press and got it out you can bet the fly-wheel hole got bigger in the process.
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T-715

Post by Ron Patterson » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:26 am

T-715
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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:47 am

This is my first engine build with no magnets. So I am far from being an expert on the subject. I missed the fact that the pins could back out until my pin "fell out" while riveting the ring gear. Then I had that "bad feeling in my stomach" of Oh Crap I just dodged a bullet. I have rebuilt lots of engines thru the years and never gave any thought to the pins backing out. After all the magnets will not let that happen, and all my engines had full magnetos installed. . I always just checked the pins and replaced as needed. Mine were like new, no wear. and did not appear loose. This engine was rebuilt sometime in the 70s 80s era and has been running with no mag and no pin retaining system of any kind. Just by luck or the grace of god that the pin did not cause catastrophic failure.

I have seen quiet a few "loose pins" thru the years of tearing down engines. So I know it is a somewhat common occurrence. I have ordered Dan's pin retaining ring. It should solve any problems with the pins backing out. Ill try to remember to post photos when I get the ring installed.

Thanks for the specification drawing, The Ford service manual says that the pins need to be .003 larger where they fit into the flywheel. That is to make up for the holes being enlarged by driving out the old pins.

Thanks for all the input

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:23 pm

Somewhere I have a photo of the collar installed on my engine - here's what Dan's oil slingers look like installed - I'm still looking !
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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by DHort » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:23 pm

If you are planning on an outside oil line make sure you do not get the one with the mag post assembly. Since I do not have a coil ring to keep the assembly in place, it loosened up and dropped into the transmission. Made a horrible racket and oil spit out everywhere. They do make a fitting for the mag post that is just a brass elbow.

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:25 pm

That is a good tip about the mag post oiler. I will be using a homemade version of the high volume oil line that fits into the side of the hogs head. Since it sits more in line with the flywheel, it will deliver lots more oil ... Thanks again for all the input ..

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by TonyB » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:57 pm

I removed the magnets on the speedster motor and it ran fine for several years. In one Arizona Run, which we won, at the end I drove the car into trailer and we trailered home. At home I jumped on the speedster and it just went Clump. The engine was locked solid. After a few days we stripped it down and found a pin had come loose and jammed on the oil pump.
Fortunately there was no other damage as the pin had come loose while being trailered.
What luck.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Autie » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:42 am

As it is too cold to lay on a frozen ground and check, and my mind has been spinning since this post appeared, if my engine/flywheel has no magneto ring or magnets, if I took off the inspection pan cover, would I be able to see and have access to the area back of the pins on the flywheel to place a bolt/washer to secure the pins from working their way out? If I remember correctly, I think so. It would be a tight fit but can be done.


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Autie » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:45 am

Sorry, last line should have read..."It would be a tight fit, but can IT be done"?

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:09 am

Autie. The problem I see with installing the bolts/washers in the car is "balance". If I had used bolts I was going to weigh the parts and use thicker/thinner washers to achieve balance. Then do a final balance procedure of the flywheel assembly. The balance problem comes from the bolt hole, vs. triple gear pin spacing. There are 16 bolt holes. Then there are 3 pins. It is possible to get the three washers to cover part of the three pins, but not possible to get the three bolt/washer assemblies to have an equal spacing. Since my engine is still apart, I could balance the flywheel assembly as a unit.

It may be possible to use Dans retaining ring, by cutting it in half to install it. But I have not seen his product yet. I would suggest to contact Dan and see what he thinks. The price of his ring is not that much, for "peace of mind". But Im unsure if it is useable on a complete engine ...


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Autie » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:15 pm

Thank you for your response. I was thinking the same about cutting the retainer in half, that people have mentioned. Just don't know if there will be enough clearance to get even 1/2 of it into position. I will give him a bump and see what he says. I was also contemplating taking two thick washers, cutting one side of each flat and join them together, to provide proper bolt hole spacing and then weld them together. Making three of these and then weighing each piece and adjust each one to equal weight. I pressed the pins in myself and as tight as they were, it never dawned on me they would work there way out. My tranny was just rebuilt. The way my luck is, I don't want to take any chances. I just don't want to pull the motor AGAIN! I will post my findings with Dan once I make contact with him and post my findings.

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:20 pm

I have been in the shop doing a lot of measuring. It appears that the pins in my flywheel are already oversize (replacement) pins. The pin measures .682 where it presses into the flywheel. That is the .003 oversize required of a replacement pin. So my flywheel is scrap. I have plenty, so I found another nice flywheel. It has useable pins in it. They have about 1/2 thousandths wear. Good enough for me. I checked them very well to make sure they are not loose at all. I will still use Dan's retainer as insurance. So my problem is solved. BUT.........

....... I opened a new can of worms. The replacement pins are .682 all the length of the surface that presses into the flywheel. I found a couple original stock pins and they measure .679 where they press into the flywheel. But the stock pins have the oversize (ledge) area at the end shown in the print above. I do not have that measurement in front of me but it is enough to keep the pin from going toward the rear into the transmission reverse drum. I believe the "ledge" is a safety feature the Ford engineers used to stop the pins moving rearward into the reverse drum holes. The magnets trap the pins in the forward direction. The new "repro" pins do not have that "ledge" so the new pins are just as likely to move rearward as move forward. I can shove my loose pin all the way rearward into the holes of the reverse drum. That would be just as bad as a pin backing out. The pin is smaller where it fits into the triple gear bushing. So maybe the larger area of the pin that presses into the flywheel may not wear its way thru the triple gear bushing, but its just a brass bushing so it may or may not ????? More than likely the transmission would get so noisy before the pin could move rearward enough to cause major failure. I just did not like the idea of using something made different than the stock pins.

The small "ledge" on the stock pins is why I decided to use old pins with a little wear instead of fitting new pins.

Im lucky because I have lots of parts to choose from. So finding another flywheel with good pins was not that big a deal. But its so aggravating that a lot of our repro parts are "not to spec"


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Allan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:59 pm

Can anyone quantify the amount of 'out of balance' caused by the not quite even spacing of three bolts and washers describing such a small circle in rotation? My guestimation is it would be minimal at most. If one is worried about it, pairing bolts could be added opposite those used to keep the pins from backing out.
Either way, balancing the flywheel assembly would compensate for any discrepancies.

Allan from down under.


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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by Autie » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:41 pm

OK, heres the deal. I finally got to my T today to install the retainer plate made by Dan McEachern (which by the way is top notch, well engineered/manufactured part). Being that my engine and transmission was just rebuilt/installed prior to reading this post and it hasn't the magnets installed due to me running a distributor set up, and nothing backing the triple gear pins, I was concerned of the possibility of one of the pins backing out. Being that Dans retainer ring is suppose to be installed BEFORE the tranny is bolted to the crank because it is just that, a complete round ring (like a donut), I was wondering if I cut it into 4 exact measured/weighed pieces and went through the oil pan inspection cover, if there would be enough room to install them. A kinda tight fit but yes, it is doable. Easy peasy? Not so fast. I forgot the oil slingers I had installed on the flywheel which bolts up to the flywheel in 4 of the holes which the retaining ring would go into also. Still no problem. The problem comes in is where the oil slingers bolt onto the outer edge of the flywheel, I had to remove the starter to gain access to those (8) bolts in total. Tomorrow (?), I am going to mill the ends of the oil slingers where it bolts up to the flywheel to compensate for the height of the retainer ring and get it back together.

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Re: triple gear pins, flywheel with no magnets, questions ..

Post by dobro1956 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:04 am

Autie, Sounds like you are making progress. If you cut the retainer ring in four pieces and label them as to where they originally were when solid and then install them in that order on the flywheel , I do not think weighing them will be needed. As an added protection I also used locktite on the screws Dan supplies. His ring is really a nice piece.

Here is the only pic I seem to have taken while I was installing his ring on my engine. I would highly recommend using his product when building a engine with no magnets. Thanks Dan for such a nice product.

Sorry for any worries or extra work my problem/question may have caused. But in 30 plus years of rebuilding engines, this was a "new" problem that never even occurred to me.... The old dog learning new tricks saying, really applies to me on this problem .... :) :)


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