Later flywheel fit in narrow pan?

[Michael Paul]

I haven't tried this yet, but will a later flywheel fit in the 09/10 narrow pan/ hogshead?
Thanks for any information, Mike

[Walter Higgins]

I have an '09 flywheel and a starter flywheel here and both measure right about 15" diameter. I haven't had the parts mixed as an assembly, so if you would like other measurements just let me know.

[RGould1910]

Yes but the fit is close. I have a later flywheel in a narrow one piece pan and hogshead. Can't exactly remember but I believe I had to grind a bit off the heads of the inside rivets, possibly the brazintgthat was done to secure the new rivets I installed. Its been a while but its never become an issue.

[Walter Higgins]

What's different if the diameters are the same and there's no ring gear on it? Despite the early magnets being thinner, they're still the same length.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I certainly would NOT try a flywheel with a starter ring gear in the earlier narrow pan (too close for comfort, and asking for a disastrous grinding sound if something got tweaked just a bit!). I don't have any personal real experience with this one, although I did do some measuring for someone else a few years back, and offered my questionable opinion. He later said it worked just fine.
It wouldn't really do much good to use a starter ring gear in the early pan anyway. The only reason to install the ring gear is for possible future use of a starter. But the starter hogshead doesn't fit onto the early pan anyhow! So why have the gear in there when the engine would still have to be taken apart to change the pan?

Note, I mention some of this for general consideration. I think Michael P knows most of that.

[Walter Higgins]

A narrow hogshead is 16" across this area and a late aluminum one is 16-1/4". I can't see how the flywheel is an issue. Even the front-to-back thickness of the two different flywheels is the same.

[Joe Bell]

Depends on how early you are talking, the early square door hogshead and one piece pan will not except it but a 10 pan is 3/4 in wider like all the later ones have and those will take a starter hoghead.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I don't know offhand which months and years used which of all the variations of early pans and hogsheads. I do know that there were a bunch of variations, and that at some point around 1910 both the pan and the hogshead got a wee bit wider (the difference is about a half inch or less). The flywheel does run closer in the early narrower pan, but not a lot. And, I know that the last variations of square door hogsheads do fit the wider pan, and will interchange with hogsheads all the way up to the end of production. The earlier several variations of hogsheads are all that wee bit narrower, and won't bolt straight onto a later pan. Although a few people have managed to finagle a fit of sorts. And turnabout, the early pan does not want to work with later hogsheads. Not up to the starter versions, and not the last of the early square door variation.
This has driven people mad when trying to put together an early T. Many '09s and '10s have a "later pan and hogshead". The early narrow versions are quite rare, being flimsy in design, very few survive in good condition. More than 40 years ago, that rare (because it was used for a very short time) wider hogshead with the square door was reproduced. Quite a number of them were made, and they still show up sometimes having never been used. And the "no access door" early pans would be very expensive to actually manufacture new, so a lot of '12 to '15 narrow nose pans have been heavily altered to pass as really early pans. Being '12 to '15 pans, the early narrow hogsheads won't fit on them without nearly doubling the work required to nicely close up work access door and make it look right.
Funny how somehow people seem to wind up with the right narrow early pan and later repro wider square door hogshead. Either that or they get the right early hogshead, and a later modified wider pan.

Kind of a funny note. I just spent a few minutes on the phone with someone a few days ago about this very subject! I think it was for this very project?

[Michael Paul]

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm a little confused now, so there were 3 square hole aluminum hogshead sizes? 16" , 16 1/4" and 16 3/4" ?

I'd like to build the engine with a starter ring gear. My idea was when I get tired of cranking in a few years, I could swap out the pan and hogshead to a later one with a starter and make life easier.

Mike

[Poppie]

Mickael,
Read Tony Bowkers thread dated Monday March 30 12.51pm.
Should answer all your Questions. N.

[Poppie]

Sorry Michael for the "K" N.

[Mark Gregush]

Up until a short time ago, pretty sure it was Lang's maybe other too, carried a weld on fake bottom that allowed one to created a 1 piece pan out of later ones. Maybe call Lang's and talk to Steve and see if they might have any left or know where to get one. This would allow you to used the wider square hole cover and have room for starter ring along with being able to install starter type cover at a later date.