Newbie question about magneto

[MN_Ford_Fan]

New to the forum but have been reading it since acquiring a 26 runabout last summer (2019). First thing I did when I got it home was drain the oil. A brass screw head came out with the oil. Not knowing anything yet, I assumed it was just a piece left over from previous repairs. Went about getting it up and running and drove it around a bit. One day had it idling in the shop and I heard a couple clunking sounds coming from the engine/transmission area. Immediately shut it down and started researching the forum. Have not ran it since. So I am thinking that the screw head is from a magnet retainer after doing a bunch of reading here. I had tested the magneto before the clunking episode and it is not working. So I guess my question for the board is; what is my best plan of action? I am not concerned about being able to use the mag. I am fine running on batt for what I plan to do. I know I have to pull at least the hogshead, but could I remove all the magnets at that point?

[Gonenorth]

Personally, I would pull the engine and pop the hogshead cover off. I know some guys will tell you to leave the engine in the care and pull the hogshead cover, but the 26 Model T is far from roomy up front. If you have a loose magnet down there on the flywheel and you don't deal with it, you will be in for some big-time engine damage. And while you're at, might as well fix the magneto and do it right. Unless you have 12 volts, the car runs much better on magneto than battery.

[John kuehn]

I have to say if there is was a clinking or clanking sound and when you drained the oil a brass screw head came out DONT crank the engine and run it even though it runs fine on battery.
And if you do be prepared for the engine to lock up then it will be over except the crying!

Sorry but not being funny and I don’t mean to be to blunt but being realistic.

T engines have being ruined by running them in that condition.
Now is the time to pull the transmission cover ( some call it a hogshead and inspect where things came loose and make a decision to eventually pull the engine and replace all the magnet screws and mag coil. If it quit running on mag some loose parts got loose and shorted out the mag ring.

Good luck and hopefully there isn’t much damage and trying to give you what could happen if you run it. It may or may not mess things up but it very well could could if you continue to run it.

[John kuehn]

Hello again.
I forgot to say that what you need to do is what most if not all T owners do is to get the Ford service manual and read it it. Also buy the T repair publications as you need them to help you along the way.
Seriously they can really help in repairs and tell you what to do and more importantly what NOT to do when in repairing them.
These manuals are avaliable on this website or you can purchase them from one of the parts suppliers that can also be found on the MTFCA home page.

Again good luck and welcome to the world of T’s!

[MN_Ford_Fan]

Thanks. I guess my question is; assuming a keeper plate and maybe a magnet has fallen off, can I make this thing safe to drive on batt by removing the loose parts? Do I need to remove the rest of the plates and magnets for balance issues? Can I do all of that with just hogshead removed?

[Steve Jelf]

...can I make this thing safe to drive on batt by removing the loose parts?

The short answer is no. The longer answer is maybe, and maybe not. The only damage may be the broken screw and the loose keeper, in which case you might get away with running it for awhile. But you are gambling with major disaster (big damage, big expense). I would pull the engine, stand it nose down, pull the transmission, and fix whatever needs fixing in the mag and trans. You can recharge the magnets and have a good working magneto. You will spend some money, but it will probably be a lot cheaper than doing nothing.

[Scott_Conger]

Ryan

you must not have done enough research if you are continuing down this line of questions. Take a look at this thread and ask yourself if you will be as lucky as Jared, and not at least lose a foot or leg when it finally goes.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1505852037

[jiminbartow]

No, no, no. The clunks you heard mean it is probably already too late and the damage has been done and cannot be undone by simply removing the hogshead, which, on a ‘26, is a very difficult job, even for the most seasoned mechanic. I have had my ‘26 coupe for 50 years since I bought it at 16 in 1970. I have rebuilt the engine 3 times and would not even consider doing what you propose without completely pulling the engine. Not only is it virtually impossible to remove the hogshead with the body in place (because the firewall is not removable), it is almost impossible to properly put the hogshead back on after the work is done. The best thing for you to do is to buy a T-1 Model T Ford Service Manual, pull the engine, and dive in. There are no short cuts for you. You should look at it as an opportunity to learn everything you can about your Model T from the inside out. I am concerned that your first impulse, as a newbie that is totally unfamiliar with your Model T, is to scrap the magneto system that is part of what makes a Model T so special, just because it does not, at present, work, when the repair could be very simple. The challenge of owning a Model T is to be able to have the knowledge and patience to properly repair what needs to be fixed. In most cases, short cuts are dangerous, and can destroy the car or kill you, such as running an engine after a series of clunks or trying to repair a dry rotted spoke with wood penetrating epoxy. Please, at least learn about the magneto and try to repair it before gutting it. Once you have your engine out, you may embrace the challenge of repairing the damage caused by the clunks and hopefully find it will also be a good opportunity to get your magneto operational. Remember. Your T has been around for 94 years and has survived intact through many owners. As current owners, we are temporary custodians with an important responsibility to preserve these historical artifacts so they will live on and be passed on to future custodians after we are gone so that future generations, whether owners or bystanders, can enjoy them as we have. Jim Patrick

[MN_Ford_Fan]

Thanks Jim for your thoughtful response. No intention of running it as is, I've read enough posts to know better. I'm learning as I go. I have the manual and have no problem pulling the power plant. Just wanted to see what my options were.

[Scott_Conger]

Ryan

glad to see you taking the long view of this. Welcome to the affliction, and so very sorry you're experiencing this so early in your tenure of ownership

[Andy Loso]

Ryan,
Feel free to give me a call at 320-293-1953 or aloso@q.com. I am in St Joseph and I can help you out or come down and look it over.

Andy

[Mopar_man]

See the brass screw holding on the plate and the Magnet? That's what you found. I bet the little plate and the spool under it are still in the pan.

You need to pull the motor and pull it apart. Hopefully you don't find what I did. Everything had cracks in it. Sadly you probably will. Unless you are rebuilding the whole thing you will have to assume some risk in doing only part of a rebuild. For me I decided to rebuild the whole transmission and assume risk on the motor. I will check everything as I put it together. In your case you need to see if it did more damage. Remember these car should be considered a fun hobby and not an investment (with the exception of some of the expensive brass cars). Normally you will never get the money and time you put in to them. That's ok. When you bought the car you bought an experience that most people will never know. Don't get discouraged. Keep asking questions here, keep learning here, keep reading here, and have fun. Good luck you can do this.

By the way you can see what I've done to my transmission at my thread. Getting Rattles Back on the Road.

[Norman Kling]

I agree with the posts on pulling the engine and turning it on the nose down and remove the transmission and magneto. I will add a few other ideas since it is much easier to rebuild the engine and transmission when it is out than to fix the magneto and then later have to pull it out again to fix something else. Buy the service manual, the books by the club on Engine, Transmission, Electrical system. Read those books which give very good do it yourself instructions.

Before you pull the engine, if it will still turn with the starter or crank, without actually starting the engine, do a compression check. All cylinders should read approximately the same PSI which would be about 45 or 50 for a stock engine. The reading might be a little less at higher altitudes. If the compression is low, it might be time to do some engine work too. Then, when you get the transmission out, check out the gears and bushings in the transmission and repair if needed. Also check the starter ring gear on the flywheel. If the teeth are badly worn it is not time to replace that gear too. While you have it apart, check the fit of the connecting rod bearings and look at the babbit. Especially check the Upper part in the rod. Adjust the clearance to 0.0015 inch. This can be done by removing shims or filing down the cap.

Then work to fix the magneto. At this point you can install a rebuilt magneto coil ring and check all the magnets for cracks and replace any which are cracked. Note, the magnets are opposite polarity alternately around the flywheel So be sure to use the correct magnet. They can often be found used at swap meets or from other members. Recharge the magnets and install. Or you could buy a set which has already been checked and re-charged from one of the parts vendors. Careful attention to height above flywheel of all magnets should be same and clearance from the magneto coil ring should be no less than 25 thousandths.

The book on Electrical system shows you how to rewind your own magneto coil ring if you wish to do so. I have done three. Two of which I used in my cars successfully and one was auctioned off. Haven't heard a complaint about that one.

One more thing to do is to check the crankcase to be sure it is straight. before you install it. Someone in your local club might have a jig to do this. When you install the crankcase on the engine, Use plenty of gasket sealer and especially where the crankcase, engine and hogs head come together. That corner tends to leak so be sure to seal well Put in all the bolts but don't tighten all the way. Put on the hogs head and with the engine nose up, slip on the 4th main. That is the bearing on the rear of the crankcase which houses the universal joint. Install partly the two bolts into the crankcase and the 4th main should not bind but be able to slide it in and out of the crankcase on those bolts. Then shim the two hogs head ears which bolt to the rear of the engine to keep that position. Tighten up all the bolts and you should be ready to install back into the chassis. When you tighten those bolts be sure to start at the center and work out to the ends Just run down snug and then go back and tighten some more. This is important so you will not crack anything. The bolt hole at the rear of the hogs head next to the engine is especially easy to crack, so be careful at that location.
Norm

[jiminbartow]

Here is a thread from 2010 regarding a nose down engine support I made to help me in my transmission rebuild. www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/152658.html. It is very simple to make. Jim Patrick

[MN_Ford_Fan]

I have the motor out and the trans off. 3 magnet keeper plates came off and were being thrown about. Not seeing any damage other than to the plates themselves. So, I plan to get a new coil ring. What is the best plan of action for the magnets? I don't see any cracks on initial inspection. They have very little magnetism at the moment. I found a mystery item stuck to one of the magnets. Can anyone identify it? See picture.

[Andy Loso]

If you bring the magnets up we can recharge them. Feel free to call or email. aloso@q.com or 320-two93-one953. I would have the screws and spools and can help if you need any help.

[MN_Ford_Fan]

Thanks Andy. I may take you up on that. I have to go to St. Cloud sometime in the next 2 weeks anyway. Is it best just to bring the whole trans? I am not planning on disassembling the clutch/drums if not necessary. Considering that 3 brass screws lost their heads, do I need to put in all new screws for the entire mag plate? I assume that would probably be the best way, but is it necessary? The bobbins or spacers behind the magnets look like they took a good beating. Almost all of them have dings and chips. None look compromised though.

[Scott_Conger]

If you are wondering what that last piece is, it is the same thing as was found here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12078&p=90974&hilit=blue#p90974

You have plenty of trouble on your hands, and will probably be replacing the magneto coil ring (cheap right now) and doing a flywheel teardown and rebuild as well as replacing 1 or more parts inside your brake drum.

[Steve Jelf]

Yes, you need all new brass screws. You're going to remove all the old ones when you take the magnets off the flywheel to charge them individually and be sure none are broken or cracked. You can build your own charger (http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG88.html) but I would take Andy up on his offer so you can see how an experienced T guy does it.

[jiminbartow]

Since the engine is out, it is very easy and effective to charge the magnets using (3) 12 volt batteries (36 volts). I performed this procedure 10 years ago and documented it in the following thread posted on the forum in 2010. My magneto is still running strong so, as far as I’m concerned, this procedure has been proven to work. Some say that this procedure will work with less voltage or fewer batteries or a welder. I cannot say whether these methods work or not. All I can say is the 36 volt battery method detailed in the below thread, works like a charm and I would recommend not deviating from what absolutely works. Jim Patrick
www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/159978.html

[Allan]

Ryan, I had a screw lose its head and liberate a keeper half way across the Nullarbor Plain, some hundreds of miles into a few thousand mile trip. I killed the engine immediately I heard the clinking. The trouble trailer got us to our overnight stop and we diagnosed the exact problem by removing the starter motor so we could see inside. The only way to fix it was to pull the motor and replace the screw and plate. I got away with just doing that much work on a road trip, and it has performed well since.

In your situation you have a distinct advantage. Having gotten that far into the job, I would advise the following.
You need 16 magnet keepers. Replacements should be originals, as repros are of dubious quality.
You need 16 new brass screws. If one broke, others will too. They look like they crystalise.
You might as well check that the starter ring gear is good while you have it all apart.
You need 16 sound magnets. Give yours a good rap on a vice/anvil, holding them at the V end. You will break any that are unsound.Check out the breaks.
You need 16 new alloy spacers. The old ones are likely cracked in places and will not stand being reworked when setting the magnet heights.

Then you are set for a rebuild that should give no further trouble. It is silly not to do the whole thing properly once you are this far into the job.

Allan from down under.

Otherwise

[Andy Loso]

Bring the whole transmission and we'll go from there. It probably isn't what you want to do, but it is looking like a teardown is in your future. It is better to tear it down and know what you have, instead of sitting on the side of the road, saying it looked good; I can't believe it broke. Give me a call or drop me a note and we'll get it figured out.