MTFCA Forum

I know the "black" cars officially started with the 1917 Model year but I wonder, were any 1916 model year cars built with the '17 style radiator and hood instead of brass? I know that items from earlier production often appear on later cars (being used up) but did it ever go the other way?

Tim

I had to reread your question to understand that you're not rehashing an old question regarding '17 model year vs '16 build year.

I have seen a later car (a '23) made into a '16 and it took some work, didn't look bad, but to a trained eye there were tons of things "wrong" about it, but the owner loves it and I don't think many in his club suspect what it really is, and if they do, they've kept silent about it. The owner asked me if it was a '15 or a '16, and my answer was "nope". It was neither. By his reaction, I knew that the best course was to continue with the repairs and remain amicable. That worked well for both of us. As an aside, I think there are as many or more '15's on the road now than ever produced (sarcasm). It is the rare hobbiest who is satisfied with their '16 just being a '16 but that's a different story and an opinion on a question you didn't ask.

To your question, I think it is unlikely if many if any '16 bodied cars got "black" radiators as that would entail some level of modification/fitment that I doubt that the factory would undertake. With a major styling change, I'd expect that non-interchangeable parts would immediately become stock that typically got foisted upon hapless dealers as spares for replacement due to warrantee or accident damage.

Scott, my question arose from a well-respected antique car restorer who while working on my car recently asked "are you sure this isn't a '16?" Apparently it has an abundance of 1916 parts which I took as being leftovers from the previous model year being used up. It's titled 1917 and the engine dates to 23 September 1916 which makes it a somewhat early '17. Just curious I'm not interested in passing it off as something it's not although I have seen a number of other cars where someone has done just that.....to each his own.

Tim

based on your additional information, I would say it's a '17, made in '16 of course, and every possible leftover '16 part that was interchangeable would have been used up first. I've read your other questions regarding this interesting car and your latest update to your original question makes perfect sense to me.

With regard to titles, remember that your car would have been sold without a title as states only started requiring titles in the '20's. I have the original title for my '13, issued by state of Indiana several years later. It is different from any title I've ever seen. Basically, the owner had to show up, prove that the car was his, probably based on licensing documents and "looking honest" and the car was titled to whatever the owner said it was. Sometimes it was accurate and sometimes wildly off. There did not seem to be any effort used to verify the year. My Jan 2, 1913 car is titled forever as a '14 and I'm fine with that.

Try and make friends at the DMV, with a line of people behind you, and tell the disaffected clerk, "well, it's true it was made in 1916, but I have conclusive proof and documentation that it really is a later model year and..." "NEXT"!!!

Scott, that's pretty much my take on it. The evidence I have is that other than the upholstery the car is pretty much original. True, they did install 30 x 3.5 demountables all around but that was probably early in it's life. The car spent the majority of it's life in storage and probably belonged to the same family from new thru age 70. Unfortunately, Michigan doesn't keep records of previous titles more than 15 years so much of my info is anecdotal. It was a Detroit car so probably built at Highland Park. I've been told things like "That's not correct for a '17" but my take is that it may be correct for MY car. Fortunately, the controversy hasn't interfered with my enjoyment of the car

Some period ads turned up some years ago for dealerships to up-date your brass T with black radiator/kits, so yes they can be.

These are the questions that will go on forever. In CA the titles used to have a space for "Year Model," and "Year Sold." My '16 is a Dec 10, 1915 made car (or should I say the engine was made then??) and it is titled as a '15 because the modern title only had "year Made" Mine is in a multiple transition of parts period; Aluminum hogs heads were being phased out, brass trim was being phased out, electric horns were pretty much completely phased in by Dec '15, etc.
So yes, your car could have some '16 carry over pieces, and yet still be a '17 "year model." Since your car has a pretty much "known history" I wouldn't change something just because someone says, "that isn't right!" After all, that was done a few years ago to many '14 year models and it turns out "the experts" of the time were WRONG!
Actually the previous owner of my '16 purchased brass rims to put on the headlights and sidelights of my car, as in the 1960s (when he did this), folks thought that was correct for a '15, which he thought it was, since it was made in '15. Interesting part of my car's history is that it sat from 1961 to around 2000 when I got it. And it is still sitting, although many parts of it are now restored. It will probably sit for another year or two while I finish up a few more projects that are "in front of it." Most of the car has been inside all of that time too--MOST of it. The previous owner had scattered it about his place a bit. This is probably fairly common, I doubt most model Ts have been in continuous use all their lives.

Tim

by now you may have likely figured out that for every knowledgable person, there are 1/2 dozen experts.

In the model T era, Ford RARELY made a clean "model year" change. 1916 into 1917 was about as close as they got in the '10s. Even at that, many many parts were changed on a running basis, some before the radiator etc change, some after the obvious. Even the fenders were not an absolute. Some late '16s had the crowned rear fenders mixed with the '15/'16 flat fronts. Numerous chassis and engine parts were changed between early '16 and late '17. Most of those changes were running changes, where side-by-side cars may be equipped differently for as much as a couple months. The earliest '17s are almost as different in minor (and some not so minor!) details from the late '17s almost as much as a '16 and a '17 appear to be.
Many people, even in this hobby for many years, still insist on applying modern expectations to their (and YOUR) antique automobiles. Often, the best thing to do when they make such comments? Is just smile and turn away. On a case by case judgment basis, maybe go into detail and educate them, and/or others around that are willing to learn.
No matter how many times the hobby will adopt a bad idea and try to "correct" Henry's mistakes? The cars will NEVER have been built the way some people today think they should have been.