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Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:07 pm
by Rosenfelder
I have had the back wheels off of my '27 for a while while I rebuild the drive line. While handling the wheels (with no weight on them) I realized how loose some of the spokes are. On the car it looked like one or two were a little loose and maybe could be shimmed. While the car is laid up anyway I want to re-poke all the wheels. After looking at the parts catalogs, I see that there are two different length spokes. How do you accurately measure the felloe to determine which spokes are required. It would be a pain to order 48 of the wrong length spokes. The measurement appears to have to be within 1/16". I'm not sure how to get that accuracy. Any help would be appreciated. (I'm still waiting for a back ordered adjustable Timken pinion bearing kit).

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:03 pm
by Scott_Conger
You're likely looking at the spokes for earlier demountable wheels where there is a difference in length between Kelsey and everyone else. Look under "21" " wheels and you should find all the same spokes with the exception of the tenon diamater throught the punched holes in the felloes. Measure several holes (without spokes) in several places at each hole. The tenon is slightly larger than the hole. Do NOT buy too small of a tenon. They are to be a solid press fit.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:16 pm
by CudaMan
Hayes felloes also use the slightly longer spokes (Kelsey and Hayes were separate companies in the days of the Model T). If you have Kelsey felloes, they will have four slots punched into them for the separate lugs to bear against.

If you have Hayes felloes, they may be stamped "Hayes" somewhere one them. Hayes felloes also have four indentations around the perimeter to allow clearance for the "feet" of each lug.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:34 pm
by Scott_Conger
Mark

All good information for those who do not know. However, he has a '27. The likelihood of having demountable 30x3 1/2 wheels on this vehicle would be remote and would be a service or restoration error. There is of course a very remote possibility of 30x3 1/2 steel felloes, Non-demountables on the car, in which case there are no spokes at all to be purchased from dealers that I am aware of. Demountables from '25-'27 were 21" with ballon tires...an entirely different critter.

OP...it will be immensely useful for you to tell readers if you have split rims, and also post a picture so that you get the best response for your situation.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:49 pm
by CudaMan
Oops, my bad, I should have picked up that he said he has a '27. I am not aware of any wood spoke length variations for 21 inch wheels, just variations in the tenon diameters, does anyone know differently?

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:18 pm
by Steve Jelf
On the back-ordered pinion bearing, if you're talking Fun Projects I would go with the non-adjustable version if that would be any faster. That's what I have used, and it's fine. The only reason there even is an adjustable version is that some folks feel better if they have something to adjust. :)

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:41 pm
by RajoRacer
Some of "us" just happen to enjoy "adjusting" things, Steve !

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:28 am
by Rosenfelder
It's a little bit of a mystery why this '27 (April) has 3-1/2" x 30" wooden wheels, but it does. Also has older style water outlet / fan setup. That aside I still need to re-spoke the wheels. The tenons are Ø5/8", but I still don't know how to verify the fellow diameter to determine 'short' or 'long' spokes.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:08 am
by Sarikatime
If you are going to change out all your spokes it would be better to send them off to stutmans in Ohio. Recently I had paint and bad or rotten and split spokes so I used spokes from a spare wheel, cleaned them up and reinstalled them. They look nice but what a pain in the backside. Had to build a spoke press, but you know it is a good idea to do it yourself but it never turns out that way. The 48 spokes will cost almost as much as it does to have the professional shop do it right. Stutmans has done several sets for me in the past and they are beautiful. Here in Arizona we have 2 or 3 percent humidity part of the year but after five years I had to retighten the hub bolts but they are still beautiful and straight. Just my 2 cents, you do it the way you like.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:09 am
by DanTreace
Your spoke length would be typical for any 30" x 3 /12" tire demountable rim wood wheel.

The actual rim diameter is larger than the rim diameter of the split-rim demountable balloon tires, which are 21" tires.

732024.jpg
Your 30" diameter for clincher tires.

732023.jpg
Spoke length is shorter for balloon tires.




Ref. for both sizes of clincher rims:

Clincher rims sizes (2).jpg

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:20 am
by John kuehn
Lang’s 2019 catalog tells you how to determine the difference between 30x3 1/2 Ford or Kelsey Hayes felloes. It says the Inside diameter is only 1/32 “ difference. To me they go into detail how to tell the differences in the spokes for a paticular type of wheel. Whichever it might be.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:34 am
by Scott_Conger
Well that is a bit of an odd duck. Anyway, here is what John is talking about in the Lang's catalogue: https://www.modeltford.com/item/2800HS-5/8.aspx

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:50 am
by Rosenfelder
My wheels are clincher 3-1/2" x 30, not balloon. I guess I could make some kind of fixture to measure the felloe inside diameter that avoids the hub. The trouble is with the wheel assembled, I cannot get a straight measurement across the wheel accurate with in 1/16". I have a friend who has a press and has re-spoked wheels on several of his cars. Do I need to take the wheels apart in order to measure the fellows? If I'm going to re-spoke, I guess that it doesn't matter. Seems like shipping four wheels somewhere would be costly.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:18 am
by Scott_Conger
You may well find that once you remove the hub bolts and flange that you can beat the hub out with a rubber mallet and measure the ID pretty easily. The hub may even fall out.

Steve at Langs is very easy and knowledgeable to work with. Once a hub is liberated, you might want to send him a couple of pix and order a couple of spokes just to get an eyeball on length. Once you're happy, complete the order.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:46 am
by Steve Jelf
...but I still don't know how to verify the fellow diameter to determine 'short' or 'long' spokes.

Just remove the bolts and hub plate and measure the spokes you have.

I would not hesitate to send non-demountable wheels to Stutzman, which is what I have done. But I assemble my own demountable wheels using the Regan press with spokes from Lang's. It ain't rocket surgery.
:)

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:08 pm
by Rosenfelder
Thanks all. I was reluctant to disassemble the wheels before figuring this out, but that looks like the right way to do it.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:42 pm
by Altair
I had a wheel with loose tenons and I drilled the tenon out in place and drilled about an inch into the spoke and inserted a dowel size for size and glued it in place. I believe I turned the dowel on my lathe to assure a tight tap in fit. Because of the tight fit and the glue it will be necessary to drill a small hole through the center of the dowel to all air and excess glue to escape. When completed the spoke is just as strong as the original.

Re: Re-spoking wood wheels

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:17 pm
by Mel King
I just sent my hubs and fellows to Callimers wheel Shop in PA,he did agreat job and was reasonable. MEL.