More hard cranking problems on the 1909

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TonyB
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More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by TonyB » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:25 pm

So I thought I had solved the hard cranking problems on the 1909 touring, no such luck.
I did start the engine using a later hogshead and flywheel using a T electric starter. We also found the back axle was too far back and was distorting the engine pan. I fixed both these problems.
So now I reinstalled the original flywheel, transmission and hogshead.
I did get it started but it was still very tough to turn. In desperation I took out the bands and two cranks later it was running. I was able to crank and we even managed an nice idle.
During assembly I found the low speed band didn’t need the adjusting bolt as it was touching the hogshead on one side and the pedal cam on the other. Pulling the hogshead once more,I’m getting good at this, I found the space between the cam and the hogshead is 2 5/8” and measurement of the band ears when tight is 2 3/4”. I checked the other two bands and both needed at least around 2 3/4”. For the bands to be loose it needs at least 2 7/8”in the hogshead.
Space needed for lugs 2 3/4”
Space needed for lugs 2 3/4”
Space in hogshead 2 5/8”
Space in hogshead 2 5/8”
Now the hogshead is 110 years old so I doubt it’s the wrong size. The metal bands too are original demountable but I think I installed a new cam on the pedal shaft. Does anyone know if they changed over the years?
It could be the Kevlar bands are thicker but they seem to be the same as some Scandinavian bands I had in the shop. So I guess it must be the cam.
I can pull the cam off (again) and cut 1/4” off but I’m getting tired of this.......
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


Norman Kling
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:08 pm

I would suspect either the bands are not correct, or the band material is too thick. I don't think they used de-mountable ears on the bands in 1909, so if your ears are de-mountable it is the wrong bands. It could also be that the cam on the low pedal needs to be ground a little so that it will spread farther when it is in neutral or brake. Some of those cams do need a bit of adjusting before the low will work correctly.
Norm


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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by RGould1910 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:26 pm

My vote is the demountable bands are the problem. Compare them against some non demountable bands. Second choice is the Kevlar linings are too thick. I don't think the cams are the problem. I had a similar issue using a particular set of demountable bands in a brass car. Some demountable bands have high ridges.

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CudaMan
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by CudaMan » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:33 pm

Is it even possible to remove and replace demountable bands through the small opening in the early hogshead? Just trying to learn.
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by KimDobbins » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:59 pm

Hi Tony, I’m sure sorry your having so many problems. I think it’s got to be the bands. I’ve never tried later bands in an early engine like yours but it’s sure sounds like that’s the issue. Best of luck!


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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by Nv Bob » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:39 pm

Later demountable bands can rub on the inside of the hogs head forcing them to bind
This an issue i had on last aluminum hogs head i put on
3 sets of bands and last set was no demountables and problem went away


2nighthawks
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by 2nighthawks » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:57 am

Tony - For some reason, I can't seem to find your original post where you brought up this "hard cranking" problem, but on that original thread, I believe I explained in detail the very same problem our club had on a "work party" project, and what we found was wrong, and what we had to do to fix it. You might go back and check there, but in the meantime, the last several fellows who posted just above me on this thread have pretty well explained it. Your demountable bands and the hogshead you have are not compatable,....harold


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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by Russ T Fender » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:21 am

As far as I know you have to remove the hogs head to change the bands so there is no reason to use the bands with the detachable ears. I have tried on my '10 without success. The opening is just too small. I did not however have any interference issues when I tried the later bands but there are a few variations and it is very likely that you may have used the style that is problematic. In any event, since there is no advantage to using the later bands, why not replace yours. By doing so you may have solved the problem or at least eliminated it as a source.


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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by Adam » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:05 am

Non demountable bands have more clearance than demountable bands. Even in the earlier iron hogsheads, over 50% of them don’t have sufficient clearance for demountable bands. The Ford Service Manual had instructions for converting earlier iron hogsheads for demountable bands but the only reason you could get away with it on some of those hogsheads is because FORD bands were cotton and if there was a little spot of interference it would burn/wear away quickly and not cause any trouble.

Installing non-demountable bands might fix it.

As I’ve mentioned before; it does also have the symptoms of a cracked driven gear shaft (brake drum shaft). Have you had the driven gear off this transmission, taken the 3 drums apart, and inspected the driven gear shaft?

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TonyB
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by TonyB » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:46 pm

Mark- there is no way to remove the bands thru the hogshead opening. Indeed just installing the nut and washer on the reverse pedal shaft is difficult enough. I’ll post pictures when I get the d$&m thing back together.
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

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Topic author
TonyB
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by TonyB » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:51 pm

I took a couple of pictures of the opening in the 09 hogshead and one of the adjusting nuts.
09 hogshead inspection hole
09 hogshead inspection hole
09 adjustment nuts
09 adjustment nuts
I don’t need to say more......
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:35 pm

I'd give serious thought to putting in a matched set of correct rate springs for the bands. Your brake spring has the appearance of potentially coil binding long before the brake band begins to wear or settle in
Scott Conger

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KimDobbins
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by KimDobbins » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:20 pm

Tony, here a couple of pictures of my 1910 transmission cover. There appear to be some differences in the inside of your cover when compared to mine. This might translate into dimensional differences inside your cover which may put pressure on your bands. Best of luck !!
Attachments
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RajoRacer
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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:41 pm

Tony - could it be possible your cover is a reproduction ? Sure doesn't look anywhere's near the same as Kim's.

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Re: More hard cranking problems on the 1909

Post by Walter Higgins » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:24 pm

Yes, I agree. Attached are photos of two square door's side-by-side, both originals. The one marked "2" (like Kim's) came off a 3,000-numbered car and is likely original to it. The one marked "1" was bought as a loose part and its serial number is not known. I had looked over both very carefully and they appeared identical to each other. I think what everybody is seeing is these have round pedal bosses inside the square door opening whereas yours are cast all the way to the top and milled flat, so there is something different going on there.
Attachments
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