runnin' rough

[Vinny b]

my 1913 touring suddenly started running rough yesterday. it was sitting most of the winter so i drained the bowl on the carb. no water there. so i shorted out all 4 plugs. motor clearly bogs down on 3 of the 4 pistons. the #2 plug (as i count from the front) is getting juice but when i short it out nothing changes. is my timing off ?

[RajoRacer]

Timer or distributor ? Assuming timer - sounds as though it needs a "service". If distributor - clean & check the points.

[Vinny b]

i'll get the manual out. don't know much about the timer

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Swap the coils around and see if your dead cylinder "moves" with the coil, or stays at #2.

[RichardG]

VINNY, A SIMPLE TEST IS TO CHANGE #2 PLUG WITH ANOTHER PLUG ,LIKE #1 IF THE SKIP FOLLOWS THE PLUG CHANGE, ITS THE PLUG THAT'S THE PROBLEM, LIKE GRAMP ALWAYS SAID KISS--KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID, CANT BE THE COIL, CANT BE THE WIRE, IF AFTER CHANGING THE PLUG THE SKIP IS STILL AT # 2, CK THE COMPRESSION, CARBON BUILD UP AROUND THE VALVE COULD HAVE SWELL'D OVER THE WINTER KEEPING A VALVE FROM CLOSING TIGHT, IF YOUR GETTING FIRE AT THE PLUG CHANCE'S ARE ITS NOT THE TIMER,OR WIRE, OR COIL, ALL ELSE FAILS TRY SPRAYING CARB CLEANER WHERE THE INTAKE MANIFOLD WHERE IT MATES WITH THE BLOCK,IF THE ENGINE REVS SLIGHTLY YOU COULD HAVE A VACCUM LEAK, TRY TIGHTENING THE CLAMPS, HOPE THIS IS HELPFUL, GOOD LUCK.

[Vinny b]

thanks guys, goin out to the garage to check for vacuum leak first then ill switch coil wires

[Vinny b]

no vacuum leak. when you say switch the coils, do you mean switch terminals on the fire wall ?

[RajoRacer]

I'm assuming since you are now referring to coils, you have a timer & coils - "my 1913 touring suddenly started running rough yesterday", if you ruled out old gas, it could be that the timer just needs cleaning & oiling (depending on timer type) being's it sat for a while - vacuum leaks don't normally "just appear" !

[John kuehn]

Switch the coils around in the coil box and see if anything changes. If it stays the same it could be a bad plug or maybe the timer.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

no vacuum leak. when you say switch the coils, do you mean switch terminals on the fire wall ?

No. I mean remove two of the coils from the coilbox, (one of them being the #2 coil), and swap their positions. Let's say you swapped #1 & #2. Now, does #1 have the miss, or did the miss stay at #2? If it traveled, then the coil is to blame. If it didn't, then you have to look at the problem maybe being the spark plug, or plug wire, or a timer issue. But, one thing at at time: try swapping the coils.

[Vinny b]

i will try that today. keep you posted

[Vinny b]

today i took all 4 coils out and cleaned all contact points. i reassembled just as they were without a gap tool. will incorrect gap cause it to run rough ? anyway all 4 are arcing good and still runs rough. a new set of plugs from macs should be here by tues. if the plugs don't do it then its down to the timer ? do they make a kit to rebuild it or should i just clean it ?

[RajoRacer]

I don't believe you should see considerable arcing at the coil points unless you are running on "bat" - do you not switch over to "mag" after staring initially ? Is your magneto even operable ? Have you pulled the spark plugs ? Plugs normally don't just die ! I'd be removing the timer to clean & oil !

[RajoRacer]

That should have read "starting" - not staring !

[Vinny b]

i will pull the timer off and clean it. do they sell a rebuilding kit? i see a few parts on snyders website. anyway, thats it for this weekend. i'll pull it off next saturday and see what it looks like in there. i guess i should put new parts where possible, theyre not too expensive. also, i need to find someplace nearby that tests coil boxes. thanks for your help so far, i will keep you posted

[Vinny b]

P.S. yes, i was running on battery. next time i will switch to magneto.

[RajoRacer]

Vinny - if the coils are set correctly & the timer is clean & roller oiled (if applicable - not all timers need oil), there should be a slight but noticeable increase in r.p.m. AND the arcing at the points should not be as bad.

There's no "rebuild" kit for timers - usually just a cleaning - gas, Brakleen, acetone- whatever - clean out the old oil & "stuff", verify the "raceway" is smooth then a few drops of oil on the roller & see what happens.

[RajoRacer]

Addendum to above statement: I should have added "upon initial startup on "BAT" and then switching to "MAG" , one should feel/hear the slight increase in r.p.m. - my apologies for getting ahead of myself !

[Joe Bell]

Had one the other day was trying to sell a car that had been setting for a few years I took it around the block with the person interested in showed him how to shift the ruckstel. He then took his wife around the block and it dropped a cylinder, checked the coil first it was good, pulled the plug to see if valve had stuck from old fuel and top of valve was gone. It still had the old two piece valves in it, dodged the bullet on hurting anything else, seat was good didn't hurt head or piston, so I changed out all the valves and it runs better now than before.

[RajoRacer]

Very valid point there, Joe !

[Scott_Conger]

You cannot disassemble new coils and reassemble them without adjusting them using proper equipment and ever expect the car to run properly.

You ESPECIALLY cannot disassemble old coils and reassemble them with out adjusting them using proper equipment and ever expect the car to run properly. And, frankly even if you used proper equipment and properly adjusted them, with old caps, etc, the car will still be lame.

You've now introduced a huge change into the equation and are now headed for further changes in the system by wanting to just buy new parts and start installing them.

Whether or not coils were your problem initially, they are now thoroughly suspect and may be clouding the issue to the point where no one remote will ever diagnose your trouble. They may stumble into a correct guess, but not diagnose it from a logical standpoint.

Rethink your methodology

[RichardG]

HOW CAN ANY THING BE MORE SIMPLE, THE SKIP BY VINNY'S DISCRIPTION IS IN #2 CYL, I SAY SWITCH THE #2 CYL PLUG WITH THE #1 CYL PLUG, IF THE SKIP MOVES TO THE #1 CYL, THEN ITS THE PLUG AT FAULT. AFTER THAT IF YOU STILL HAVE A SKIP IN #2 THEN YOU NEED TO LOOK FURTHER, NEXT SIMPLE TEST WOULD BE A COMPRESSION TEST, IF THAT CHECKS OUT TO BE GOOD THEN DIG DEEPER.

[Vinny b]

i'll pull the radiator first.

[Scott_Conger]

That's fun and good practice, but why on earth would you do that?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

today i took all 4 coils out and cleaned all contact points. i reassembled just as they were without a gap tool. will incorrect gap cause it to run rough ? anyway all 4 are arcing good and still runs rough. a new set of plugs from macs should be here by tues. if the plugs don't do it then its down to the timer ? do they make a kit to rebuild it or should i just clean it ?

Who told you to do that? I sure didn't.

I give up. Best of luck to you...

[Vinny b]

so today i pulled the timer, cleaned it and reassembled it. still missing. does anyone know where i can have my coils tested in the north new jersey area ? and thanks jerry for the vote of confidence

[DHort]

Mike Kosser lives in New Jersey. He is the inventor of the ECCT. Go to www.modeltecct.com and find his e-mail address. He just did the webinar today on testing coils so his info is probably on the post at the top of this forum.

[Vinny b]

thanks, i'll check him out