Brass "conversion"

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Pierre-Yves Smits
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Brass "conversion"

Post by Pierre-Yves Smits » Thu May 21, 2020 11:02 am

Hello,
I was curious about a technical question. What has to be done to " age" a 17-22 to a 1915-16. What operations must be done to the body, firewall and fenders?
I love my '20 the way it is, all black, and will never change, so the question is just for my T knowledge.
Pierre-Yves
Belgium


Original Smith
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Original Smith » Thu May 21, 2020 11:21 am

It has been done a lot, especially here in California, and in my opinion, all because of the Horseless Carriage Club and their stupid pre 1916 rule! They should have make it pre 1915. I've been studying this problem for a long time, and once you know the difference, it's not hard to tell.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu May 21, 2020 11:25 am

It takes a lot. There are so many major and minor differences I won't try to list them here. Body, hood, rear end, 1915 pedals, radiator, and on and on and on. See Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia and the MTFCI Guidelines for changes by model year. I expect it's the most expensive way to get a car that looks like a 15-16. Better to buy a real one, or even one assembled from parts.
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Mark Gregush
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu May 21, 2020 11:42 am

Depends on how far you want to take it. if you just wanted a fun simple sorta look alike; Radiator, hood, firewall with cover, brass headlight/side light rims, brass hub caps and water outlet on the head would get you by. Most people would not know the difference and as long as you were not trying to pass it off as a real 15 would be fine. I have thought about doing it to my 21, just for fun. :D
Last edited by Mark Gregush on Thu May 21, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by jsaylor » Thu May 21, 2020 12:07 pm

Its been said that there are more "15" T's on the road than Henry built.

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu May 21, 2020 2:12 pm

Suggest you specify how much of a conversion you want to make. Appearance only (body, radiator, lights, firewall/dash, radiator etc). Undercarriage too (front axle, steering components, spokes, etc). It will help others to s=identify what all you'd need to do. Likely less expensive way is to buy a '15 here, ship it there and sell your '20 there alternative Build a brass speedster. You can also keep your '20 and drive them 2.
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Pierre-Yves Smits
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Pierre-Yves Smits » Thu May 21, 2020 2:39 pm

As i said, i don't want to convert my car ^^ . It was just about the general look. I wondered about the firewall. It is a wooden one on a 15-16 but on pictures of real 1916, there is a sheet metal added with the former of the hood.

Also, has someone a picture of a brass radiator car, but with round style fenders of 17-22?

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by KWTownsend » Thu May 21, 2020 3:08 pm

Pierre,
The end of the brass radiator coincided with the beginning of the curved fenders.
I have seen photos of earlier brass radiator cars with after market curved fenders, but that is an exception.
-Keith

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by dobro1956 » Thu May 21, 2020 5:08 pm

The Horsekess Carriage rule should have been pre 17 and included 1916 Model Ts. A 1916 T is a brass car, I do not care what the Horseless Carriage guys or the Model T guys with 1914 and earlier cars say. The poor old 1916 T is an orphan step child because of the Horseless Carriage rule. A real 1916 T is a rare car today because so many of them were converted to 1915s so they could parpicipate in Horseless Carriare shows and tours.
In my opinion (worth very little). A better rule, that would have served the hobby much abetter would have been ,
"Pre 1914 cars, and including 1915, 1916 Model Ts would be considered brass era". It would have saved many 1916 Model T cars from the "brass envy restorers" of the 50s 60s and 70s era.
Last edited by dobro1956 on Thu May 21, 2020 7:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu May 21, 2020 5:26 pm

Some people just "hokey on" a junk brass radiator and old hood with home-made hood former that nothing fits. Looks okay from about a hundred meters. (I have seen a couple such cars, later fenders and all.)
Or, one can spend about three to four thousand dollars on Rootlieb fenders and hood and a new reproduction brass radiator, and do little else. Except don't forget the hundred hours to paint, finish, and fit all that! Looks fine from twenty feet away, but not right at all up close.
From there? How right do you want it? To assemble a more or less "correct" car? The later (cannot be later than 1920 for a touring car!!!) car would be nothing more than a parts donor as more than half of the car would have to be severely modified or replaced! Only about two thirds of the body (no top!), and a few chassis pieces would actually be used. Many internal mechanical components, along with hardware, rear hubs, and incidentals can be used clear up through the end of T production in 1927.


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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Rich Bingham » Thu May 21, 2020 6:42 pm

The encyclopedia states 308,162 cars were built in 1915. I heard the “urban myth” that there were more ‘15s around than Henry built (owing to phonied-up 1916-22 cars) back in the ‘60s. Does anyone still believe that ? :lol:
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by George Mills » Thu May 21, 2020 6:46 pm

The easiest way to visually tell?

The splash shields above the running boards. A guy so fixated on creating a '15 might even have a set of '15 shields but he dollies out those factory creases just before the flair to be smooth! Start with later fenders and they don't even think of adding a 'look alike' crease (Sorry...couldn't resist...oh so true!)

This is one of those '15 jokes shared by the '15 people...at car shows even known T guys, black car people will say..."it's a real shame that splash shield is kinked like that, otherwise its' a really good looking car!" My response is always, "Yeah, that SOB thought he'd pull a fast one and put an identical crease on the one on the other side too!" Go look, they actually match pretty good! :D :lol: :lol:

I one time thought I had a later '16 or even later hogshead of cast iron. When I bought the car, I tossed a refrigerator magnet on the hogshead and it stuck so I figured magnetic iron, definitely not aluminum. Until...time for a band change and I decided to pull the hogshead straight up reaching over the steering wheel from the driver running board to get to it. Almost launched the sucker...it was aluminum after all. So....what and why the refrigerator magnet stuck? This thing apparently has a heck of a set of magnets in it and the energy was reaching right thru the aluminum.

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Susanne » Thu May 21, 2020 7:46 pm

I would much rather have a correct '17 (because they are rare birds) than a cobbler's special. Yet people seem to forget the REAL reason these clubs were formed in the late 1940's to early 1960's. ANd the way this thread devolved makes me aware of it.

It wasn't to have a "Aren't I special, look at my exclusive car" better than the jonses thing... it was to save these slow, dangerous, and fragile bits of brass and copper and iron and aluminum from the scrapper. Because a lot of them could well have ended up that way. Because a HUGE number of them DID end up that way. Go out to your car, and remember that there were (and still are) people in power who look at our cars (regardless if they have a brass radiator or nickle hubcaps) and feel they should be legislated out of existance, a few "examples" kept in museums, and the rest scrapped and melted because, why, they're slow and dangerous, and who would want something that horrible and unreliable?

I remember some of those fights. I talked to a legislator not that many years ago that said my car should be in a museum, they should NEVER be let out on the road, and the majority of them needed to be melted down to make "real"" cars out of... Even people active IN these clubs forget this, they forget their club's history... and that's sad.

- - - - - - -

When I grew up, our Horseless Carriage local chapter allowed anything pre-'42. A lot of local clubs had rules allowing different years post '15, with the understanding to be active in the national club you had a vehicle built before 1-1-16. Of course, shudder, it's not a pre-15 with acetylene lights, or even a pre-11 with open valve springs... but it is still a piece of history, nonetheless. My first exposure to "the old cars" was a ride in Fred Stelling's '17 Empire, which, heavens to betsy, should have NEVER been allowed to survive because it wasn't a brass era car... even though there were what, 2 or 3 of them in existence back in the 60's?

Part of the reason I have been involved in this silly hobby all my life was because it preserved something I feelt worthy of preserving. Not because I could look down my nose at someone's other car and say "Mine is so much better than yours"... but because ALL these cars, from the high wheelers to the mag-light T's to the Pyroxylin painted ladies to, heaven help us, 4 wheel brakes are something that, had people not had the forethought to form these clubs, and to keep people interested, would be legislated away to the furnaces.

- - - - - - -

So I'll ask you to do something. GO out to your barn, your shop, youjr garage, whereever your T or other vintage car is parked, sit and look at it for a moment, it's graceful (or awkward as the case may be) lines, the brass or nickel (or, yes, even chrome) on its bits... heck, take a big inhale and SMELL that familiar smell of your "baby" (or babies)... and be really, really grateful that these clubs, HCCA or MTFCA or AACA or whoever, were there to protect these pieces of histroy for all of us to enjoy (and some of us to curse at when they ding our knuckles), rather than become fodder for a politicians rant to throw them all in the smelter. Instead of saying "They shoulda done this or that" to make it an exclusive club... try "Man, I'm gllad ALL of us are in this thing together".

Now, if you'll pardon me, I'll be out next to angel with a tear in my eye, joy in my heart, adding a few more scrapes to the knuckles and bangs to the head, strains to the back and teaching the neighbors some new, more colorful vocabulary... and loving every minute of the gift to which I have been entrusted.

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by TWrenn » Thu May 21, 2020 7:48 pm

It'd be a waste of time in my book, don't know why anyone would even bother. Just look for a brass car of your choice and
budget and buy it.

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri May 22, 2020 1:04 am

It'd be a waste of time in my book...

...and money. Lots of money. :D
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by John Warren » Fri May 22, 2020 7:50 am

Thank you Susanne for your sane thoughts. I love old cars, trucks,and airplanes. The clubs are for support and can get estranged at times, but thank God for them. Out here in the west, there are some sand dunes called Dumont Sand Dunes, that thousand of people at a time enjoy running their atv's on. Had it not been for one small club, the Las Vegas Sand Gamblers, these dunes would have been closed. Thanks to this club, our cars, stand a much better chance to survive and be enjoyed. Thanks again.
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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Sarikatime » Fri May 22, 2020 9:11 am

Thank you Susanne, you are a true patriot. My exact thoughts and beliefs for owning and enjoying my old cars. Frank

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Jeff Perkins » Fri May 22, 2020 9:55 am

Here is my 1913 (correct chassis with newer wheels and a 1914 windscreen) mated to a 1917 body back in 1953. A very FUN car to drive. I really don’t give a darn about what the experts think.
Attachments
BF49692E-6A80-4AEF-B46D-D439A2A1317D.jpeg
1913 Model T Runabout,
1926 Model T Touring,
1948 Chrysler New Yorker,
1991 Mazda Miata


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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri May 22, 2020 4:42 pm

Snazzy car, Jeff

looks like fun
Scott Conger

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by OilyBill » Fri May 22, 2020 5:31 pm

Pierre:
Just build one out of parts. It won't be that expensive. Model T parts are still generally pretty cheap.
If you decide to build a 1915, let me know, and I will supply you with a perfect 1915 upper cowl section.
Then you will have TWO Model T's!

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Re: Brass "conversion"

Post by Jeff Perkins » Fri May 22, 2020 5:48 pm

Thanks Scott!
1913 Model T Runabout,
1926 Model T Touring,
1948 Chrysler New Yorker,
1991 Mazda Miata

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