Early hubcap wrench
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 273
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:18 pm
- First Name: Terry
- Last Name: Bond
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1915 Chassis
- Location: Chesapeake VA
- MTFCI Number: 15718
Early hubcap wrench
Wow, a supposedly early T hubcap wrench sold on evil-bay for $400!!! Take a look at item 313084077072 in completed listings. PIcture below.
There has been a lot of discussion over time about these early wrenches. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1224885495.
But-in a couple of places the small hole is shown to be different and I'm now wondering what that was designed to fit on the Model T? The wrench that sold for $400 has a small hole that has 8 sides, whereas the holes in those shown in original Ford catalogs is a 6 sided hole. John Regan did some research on these and published his findings some time ago. He shows the 8 sided hole and indicates it is intended to fit the Spindle. I need to go out to the garage and check the spindles in my 14 but as far as I remember they are six sided. So the question - what does the 8 sided hole fit?
A good friend and I have been trying to guess all evening and we're not sure.
Terry
There has been a lot of discussion over time about these early wrenches. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1224885495.
But-in a couple of places the small hole is shown to be different and I'm now wondering what that was designed to fit on the Model T? The wrench that sold for $400 has a small hole that has 8 sides, whereas the holes in those shown in original Ford catalogs is a 6 sided hole. John Regan did some research on these and published his findings some time ago. He shows the 8 sided hole and indicates it is intended to fit the Spindle. I need to go out to the garage and check the spindles in my 14 but as far as I remember they are six sided. So the question - what does the 8 sided hole fit?
A good friend and I have been trying to guess all evening and we're not sure.
Terry
- Attachments
-
- Fords T hubcap wrench history.pdf
- (273.21 KiB) Downloaded 128 times
-
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:11 pm
- First Name: Charles
- Last Name: Little
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Touring, 1924 Del. Truck, 1924 Touring
- Location: South Paris, Maine
- MTFCA Number: 24280
- MTFCI Number: 17733
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I believe the original Ford wrench was 6 sided.
If you look at the Regan sheet, ALL of the T1349 wrench show that hole to be 8 sided. However, the real wrenches all have 6 sided holes. I assumed that the 8 sided hole in the drawings was a "typo"
If you look at the Regan sheet, ALL of the T1349 wrench show that hole to be 8 sided. However, the real wrenches all have 6 sided holes. I assumed that the 8 sided hole in the drawings was a "typo"
Charlie Little, South Paris, Maine
-
- Posts: 3284
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
- Last Name: Smith
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
- Location: Lomita, California
- MTFCA Number: 121
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- MTFCI Number: 16310
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I saw one on ebay recently for $200, but the small end was 8 sided. I have seen those before, and it's good to be aware of.
-
Topic author - Posts: 273
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:18 pm
- First Name: Terry
- Last Name: Bond
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1915 Chassis
- Location: Chesapeake VA
- MTFCI Number: 15718
Re: Early hubcap wrench
Appreciate the replies but am still wondering what the 8 sided hole fits. Is this wrench even for a Model T?
Terry
Terry
-
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:11 pm
- First Name: Charles
- Last Name: Little
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Touring, 1924 Del. Truck, 1924 Touring
- Location: South Paris, Maine
- MTFCA Number: 24280
- MTFCI Number: 17733
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I don't believe it's for a T. I've heard Dodge and Chevy, but no definite answer.
Charlie Little, South Paris, Maine
-
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:11 pm
- First Name: Charles
- Last Name: Little
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Touring, 1924 Del. Truck, 1924 Touring
- Location: South Paris, Maine
- MTFCA Number: 24280
- MTFCI Number: 17733
Re: Early hubcap wrench
Larry,
Two of this type of wrench have sold on eBay recently. One that had the 6 sided hole sold on May 7 for 147.50. It had been repainted and the seller commented that he could find no signs that it was welded or ground down, starting bid was $100. And this one with the 8 sided hole started at $200 and went for $400 at the last few seconds.
Two of this type of wrench have sold on eBay recently. One that had the 6 sided hole sold on May 7 for 147.50. It had been repainted and the seller commented that he could find no signs that it was welded or ground down, starting bid was $100. And this one with the 8 sided hole started at $200 and went for $400 at the last few seconds.
Charlie Little, South Paris, Maine
-
Topic author - Posts: 273
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:18 pm
- First Name: Terry
- Last Name: Bond
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1915 Chassis
- Location: Chesapeake VA
- MTFCI Number: 15718
Re: Early hubcap wrench
Well, hope the guy who spent $400 isn't too disappointed that it's not for a T, although that's how it was advertised. Perhaps he knew what it really was and got a bargain? Sure would like to find out what it fits.
Terry
Terry
-
- Posts: 3284
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
- Last Name: Smith
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
- Location: Lomita, California
- MTFCA Number: 121
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- MTFCI Number: 16310
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I know a very knowledgeable T guy who bought one at Chickasha once thinking it was an early T wrench. He was surprised to find the small end was eight sided. Doesn't hurt to look!
-
- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
- First Name: Susanne
- Last Name: Rohner
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '15 touring, "Angel".
- Location: Valfabbrica, (central) Italy
- MTFCA Number: 464
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
- Contact:
Re: Early hubcap wrench
Four... HUNDRED... Dollars? For an early 1349 hubcap wrench???
I found one witching a well on some old property. For free. No, I actually got PAID for it.
Someone has seen too many episodes of Pickers... that's Crazy Silly money.
Actually, no, I have a set of rods, genuine honest to goodness Ford script Conrods... can I get $2500 for them? No, make that bidding STARTS at $2500.
That's how crazy I see this wrench.
I found one witching a well on some old property. For free. No, I actually got PAID for it.
Someone has seen too many episodes of Pickers... that's Crazy Silly money.
Actually, no, I have a set of rods, genuine honest to goodness Ford script Conrods... can I get $2500 for them? No, make that bidding STARTS at $2500.
That's how crazy I see this wrench.
-
- Posts: 3638
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
- First Name: Wayne
- Last Name: Sheldon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
- Location: Grass Valley California, USA
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Early hubcap wrench
These wrenches have got to be one of the best current examples of dealers and flippers NEED to KNOW what they are dealing in! The genuine early Ford wrench is quite rare, and very desirable! Therefore, it is VALUABLE! Literally, almost worth its weight in gold (well,I haven't checked the price of gold lately???).
If I ever decide I want one for my early brass T (not likely, my earliest is a project pile of late'12/early '13 parts and pieces)? I will fake one from a later wrench (no way I can pay hundreds for a real one!). I would maybe even stamp it as "fake" as I don't like deceiving people.
I cannot say I really know what the eight sided socket version is from? I have heard from fairly reliable sources say that they were a late '10s Chevrolet. I have also read that they may have been Dodge. I just don't know for sure. With the demand generated by wanting complete year correct tool kits for a lot of the nicer early brass model Ts, they are worth hundreds of dollars (only so long as supply is low and demand is high, these things do have a way of changing). The Chevy/Dodge wrenches? For one thing, usually when someone goes nuts aver finding one for their brass T (or to flip for a quick couple hundred profit)? Turns out they got the wrong one. So they seem to be moderately common. Secondly, I don't see a lot of people with Dodges and Chevies trying to have complete year correct tool kits for them. So the only reason those wrenches are selling for way too much is all the foolhardy flippers paying way too much.
If one is going to play with collectibles, especially in the really pricey stuff? One needs to do one's homework and learn the details that separate a common cheap item from its really pricey cousin.
I suspect the prices may come down on these. About ten to fifteen years ago, I wanted a fatman steering wheel for a model T. I was dismayed to find the prices had shot up from about $400 for a really nice one to $600 to $700 for decent ones needing some restoration work. Really nice ones were selling for $800 to $1200 on eBad almost every day! I couldn't afford that, so I looked hard, and bought three of them off eBad for cheap (about $30 apiece!) because they were missing major parts and needed serious repairs! I got one of them restored, but never used it because I had to sell the car I wanted it for. It is still hanging in the garage witing and hoping I get another T to put it on.
Today? The last couple really nice ones I have seen? $300 or less. Layden Butler about a year ago had a nice Bauer, needing very little to be really nice (I saw it!), I don't recall what he was asking (Layden does KNOW what his stuff is worth!), but as I recall it was under $300. When I talked with him a few months back, he said he had not yet sold it.
I would probably have to give away the other two I paid $30 apiece for.
Items like these do go through cycles that way. Everybody goes nuts and wants more than they need, then all the hoarders wonder what they will ever do with them, and the prices fall again.
If I ever decide I want one for my early brass T (not likely, my earliest is a project pile of late'12/early '13 parts and pieces)? I will fake one from a later wrench (no way I can pay hundreds for a real one!). I would maybe even stamp it as "fake" as I don't like deceiving people.
I cannot say I really know what the eight sided socket version is from? I have heard from fairly reliable sources say that they were a late '10s Chevrolet. I have also read that they may have been Dodge. I just don't know for sure. With the demand generated by wanting complete year correct tool kits for a lot of the nicer early brass model Ts, they are worth hundreds of dollars (only so long as supply is low and demand is high, these things do have a way of changing). The Chevy/Dodge wrenches? For one thing, usually when someone goes nuts aver finding one for their brass T (or to flip for a quick couple hundred profit)? Turns out they got the wrong one. So they seem to be moderately common. Secondly, I don't see a lot of people with Dodges and Chevies trying to have complete year correct tool kits for them. So the only reason those wrenches are selling for way too much is all the foolhardy flippers paying way too much.
If one is going to play with collectibles, especially in the really pricey stuff? One needs to do one's homework and learn the details that separate a common cheap item from its really pricey cousin.
I suspect the prices may come down on these. About ten to fifteen years ago, I wanted a fatman steering wheel for a model T. I was dismayed to find the prices had shot up from about $400 for a really nice one to $600 to $700 for decent ones needing some restoration work. Really nice ones were selling for $800 to $1200 on eBad almost every day! I couldn't afford that, so I looked hard, and bought three of them off eBad for cheap (about $30 apiece!) because they were missing major parts and needed serious repairs! I got one of them restored, but never used it because I had to sell the car I wanted it for. It is still hanging in the garage witing and hoping I get another T to put it on.
Today? The last couple really nice ones I have seen? $300 or less. Layden Butler about a year ago had a nice Bauer, needing very little to be really nice (I saw it!), I don't recall what he was asking (Layden does KNOW what his stuff is worth!), but as I recall it was under $300. When I talked with him a few months back, he said he had not yet sold it.
I would probably have to give away the other two I paid $30 apiece for.
Items like these do go through cycles that way. Everybody goes nuts and wants more than they need, then all the hoarders wonder what they will ever do with them, and the prices fall again.
-
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm
- First Name: Colin
- Last Name: Mavins
- Location: Winnipeg Canada
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I have all the tools including the early hub cap wrench but know one ever looks at them because they are in the tool roll under the seat, I think I have been asked and showed them twice. My big expense was the early tire pump at 50.00 bucks it sits on a shelf because the later ford brass pump works better,but at least I have it for when the car goes to a museum.
-
- Posts: 3284
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
- Last Name: Smith
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
- Location: Lomita, California
- MTFCA Number: 121
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- MTFCI Number: 16310
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I have an original later wrench that was converted. Not hard to do, and all you need to do is fill in the Ford script before painting.
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:01 pm
- First Name: R.V.
- Last Name: Anderson
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914, 1920, 1923, 1923
- Location: Kennedy, NY
Re: Early hubcap wrench
Sometimes inaccurate information contributes to artificially high prices. A few years ago there was some "buzz" on the Forum about the T-1903 pliers. Some folks were maintaining that the "early" pliers had no screwdriver tip on one handle. Soon after that, a so-called "early" pair (as described by the seller) with no screwdriver end appeared on T bay; it quickly shot up to several hundred bucks before a few guys got into a bidding war, and as I recall, it finally sold for north of $500. Trouble is, research revealed that the T-1903 screwdriver ALWAYS had the screwdriver end, right from the beginning; the ebay pair was apparently an anomaly that had gotten by the Ford inspector. So in that sense, it was interesting as a collector's item, rather like mint errors are to numismatists, but not $500+ worth of interesting. At least not to most of us.
-
- Posts: 945
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:39 pm
- First Name: James
- Last Name: Golden
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Model T Roadster
- Location: Bowie, MD
- MTFCA Number: 14294
- MTFCI Number: 13562
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I have one of those wrenches and have been wondering what it was supposed to be used to fix, etc.
I hope someone finds the real answer.
I hope someone finds the real answer.
-
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:11 pm
- First Name: Charles
- Last Name: Little
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Touring, 1924 Del. Truck, 1924 Touring
- Location: South Paris, Maine
- MTFCA Number: 24280
- MTFCI Number: 17733
Re: Early hubcap wrench
I went through a copy of "Guide to Authentic Tools for Dodge Brothers Vehicles 1914-1938" published by The Dodge Brothers Club that i picked up at Hershey several years ago. Did not find this wrench in there. So, probably not for Dodge!
Charlie Little, South Paris, Maine