Things Went KLUNK!!! - Rusty Coupe

[Rich Eagle]

We got in the Coupe to pick up breakfast this morning, it started but before we had moved a foot it went klunk and locked up. The engine runs but kills if put in any gear. As it was in reverse at the time I believe that lining came loose. Hopefully nothing worse.

Created from tattered panels and reject parts in 2011 we have driven this to breakfast 800 times, to coffee 400 times and dozens of errands like taking calendars to the post office. I had no idea we would use it this much or I would have treated it better. The engine had been worked over in the '50s by a mechanic with all the old skills. Dressing the crankshaft journals round, cleaning and adjusting. His son drove it many miles before replacing it with a rebuilt, correct year engine for his pickup restoration. When he passed his widow donated it to the club but no takers for several years. I put new rings in it and put it in a rusty Runabout for a while. Then it went in the Coupe. It was to be a running yard ornament and eye sore at the car shows. However the more we drove it the better it ran even on 50 year old tires. I suppose it may have 6 or 8 thousand miles on it by now.
So I will drag it out near the shop and tear into it when the spirit moves me.
If anything interesting shows up I'll keep you posted.
Rich

[Norman Kling]

If the engine runs when you are in neutral, The problem is not in the transmission unless it is the brake band. Most probable cause would be in the rear axle. It's actually a good thing it happened before you got it on the road or you would have had a hard time even towing it or loading onto a trailer. Good luck fixing it.
Norm

[OilyBill]

I think if you put the tree back on it, it will run fine.
A lot of these were "Doctor's" Coupes. But I'm pretty sure this is a "Lumberman's" Coupe.
If you don't have a tree handy, you can just puts some nuts on the package tray area, and then you'll have some friendly squirrels to ride with you.
If the tree thing, or the squirrel thing, doesn't work, then my expert opinion is it's just busted.
(Or maybe it is a "Laundryman's" Coupe instead) I could be wrong.

[Dallas Landers]

Rich, you gotta get her fixed! She is kind of a celabrity here. What if it turns cold? What will you drive to breakfast? Your going to get mighty hungry my friend. People in town wont know you. You will be thin and nobody will recognize you without the coupe. Photos of her snow blanket with the jack under the rear to get her turning on cold days is a favorite of mine. Making tracks in deep snow is another. Im just sayin.

[Rich Eagle]

I guess I miss-stated the problem. It actually won't turn over now. It was running but would kill and then went Klunk.
Sorry.
We have gotten both Tourings running now, one nice one and one distressed one and the Tudor and the Speedster if we get the aluminum cans out of the way so we can get around. Plus Joy has a new car. A young lady slid into the rear fender of our old one and they totaled it. ??? I don't understand why but I'm not the expert.
Thanks for listening.
Rich

[Dallas Landers]

Doesn't sound good Rich but if you can bring that touring back from flat to fliver Im sure when the mood strikes you, you will give it a once over to find the problem. Hope its not too serious. I guess I will get used to the touring. By the way its one of my favorite to.

[OilyBill]

Please post here when you find out what's gone wrong. Hopefully its something simple and not major. Could the pin have worked out of the universal joint and be hanging up?

[halftracknut]

Mine did the same thing ....it dropped a magnet....not nice... put 2 used magnets and took out the coil ring ....now runs good...

[Norman Kling]

If the car can be pushed when in neutral, the rear axle is not the problem. It would then be something such as a magnet, as posted above, or possibly a problem with the planetary gears or a broken crankshaft. It could also be a stuck starter, however, the starter usually sticks when you first tap the starter switch It could also be caused by something which has fallen into the transmission either when the car was worked on, or a bolt or nut which fell out after the engine had been running. This bolt could be picked up by the magnets or stuck in the starter ring gear on the flywheel. If the car will roll, in neutral, I don't think it is a cracked drum or band problem.
Norm

[Rich Eagle]

Monday I decided to investigate the problem. The first thing I did was try to turn the crank. It was a little hard at first but then turned fine. This surprised me. I got in and hit the starter and it started and ran fine. All I can conclude was that the bendix stuck on the ring gear. That's the good news. I should have left well enough alone.

I drove around to the shop and decided to look through the transmission inspection cover. I could see nothing out of order there. The bands looked fine and no obvious breaks. It was obvious that antifreeze had diluted the oil and was cause for concern. I did notice that one band nut washer had the dimple on the wrong side and not engaging the notch in the nut. How could this have lasted all those miles without the nut backing off? A simple matter to remove the nut and turn the washer around the right way, right? I placed a towel against the drum to catch either nut or washer should they fall during the process and used my u-shaped band ear retainer to hold the band ears.
As Murphy's law rules the clip was in the way of gripping things. I had a good grip on the nut but the clip popped up and the band sprung way back sending the washer and towel deep into the abyss.
This can be amusing and even humorous when it happens to someone else but certainly changes the mood for the victim.
I drained the "chocolate milk" from the crankcase and got my cow magnet on a wire to fish the washer out. It had worked first time when a nut had gotten away from me. After about three hours of fishing in all possible directions, removing the starter for another angle and trying to see if it had stuck to a magnet. I was becoming more perturbed that one should enjoying a hobby. Two thoughts came to mind several times during the search.
1. Remove the hogshead which seamed to excessive.
2. Leave it alone and hope it stays put and doesn't cause any damage.
All this and the old man's problems of misplacing tools and parts or forgetting which step I was doing was taking it's toll. Finally I bit the bullet and prepared to remove the hogshead. The exhaust pipe and the gas line were in the way so I fought the battle with them. A cutout I had added was one more item to disconnect. Much of this was under the car with patina falling in my eyes not to mention gas and oil dripping. Removing the bolts I tried to break the hogshead loose and out. This is the cast iron one, not the aluminum one and much heavier that they were 40 years ago. As it turns out, my treasure of a heater manifold sticks back enough that the hogshead hits it and can't be twisted of persuaded out without manifold removal. Timeout to take those off.
Clamps removed, the intake and carburetor come off just fine but the sheet metal shroud hits the firewall. Only 3 screws hold it to the manifold but the one tucked in where you can't line a screwdriver on it is exceedingly rusted pitted and frozen since it was brand new 7 years ago. Like the Brain Teaser Metal Wire Puzzles Magic Fun Tricks, by turning the whole manifold/cover assembly just the right way on the capturing stud and holding it there with a short piece of 2x4 you can get the manifold end out of the way enough to pull the hogshead out. However, the gland ring gaskets have fallen on the floor and the manifold screw is still a future project.

By now it is late and after removing bands and fishing some more I am truly exhausted. I retired and slept for the next day and a half. I am not looking for sympathy as I know many of us have been here before. Fortunately we forget or find an different form of frustration and torture. I mention this for those who may enjoy other peoples troubles or can identify with the pursuit. At this point I think I can go out and fish some more Hopefully some photos and more progress will come later. No washer as of yet.
Rich

[RustyFords]

"I was becoming more perturbed that one should enjoying a hobby."

[ModelT46]

When I bought my 1910 in 1946 I knew little about the workings of a Model T Ford. After a few months I determined the T needed new band linings. On a 10 one must remove the cover. This I did. I installed new bands and replaced the cover., when puting on the last nut I dropped it. It disappeared down into the pan. Being resourceful, I called the local Ford plant and asked if someone knew about Model T Fords. The found someone and I told him of what had happened. He said "get under the T and tap the area around the drain plu. It will cause the nut to jump up and attach to one of the magnets.. I did that and cranked the engine over. when I did so the nut appeared. When on to finish. That was in 1947 and those bands lasted until 1955.

[John kuehn]

That’s good information about removing a nut when you drop one inside the transmission area! Bet that Ford mechanic who told you about that had done that before.
Sure beats from having to pull the engine! Sometimes all it take is a hammer. Don’t think that one is in tinkering tips.

[mngreen]

I can't wait for the cartoon encapsulating your hogshead adventure!!!

[halftracknut]

my father told me to tie a bath towel to a magnet then turn engine over slowly and nut will come up...it did...

[DickC]

Rich, find an old refrigerator and remove the door gasket. Open the gasket and you will find a length of magnet. Work the magnet "rope" down into the transmission cover. The magnet rope can be slid along the pan and will grab the nut of washer easily. Worked for me and for several others I have told. Good luck, Dick C.

[Dallas Landers]

If you clean it up and put it back, maybe the wife wont know.

[Rich Eagle]

Here is a photo of the offending washer in backwards. I hadn’t heard of the taping trick before. I did wire a towel on and spun it through a couple of times. That also worked for me years ago.

I removed the inspection cover from the crankcase to see if I could get at it that way. Also tried a finger, a screwdriver and a wire through the drain plug hole. I can’t feel or hear it anywhere. As much as I hate to I decided to pull the engine and stand it on end. The headlights and radiator had to come off. The nuts are now rusted in place. I had just struggled with my ’14 radiator bolts. That hidden plate idea works well until your stud nuts seize. Penetrating oil and heat finally worked for the nuts but the headlight posts were really tough to break loose. I was reminded of many fenders we found torn around the post to free them from the car. I have patched these fenders in that area as shown. I had drained the radiator a few days ago. It turns out that when you tip the radiator in removing it there is still enough coolant in the lower tank to dribble for as long as it takes to find a bucket.
Also it is a good idea to get the hood rod out of the way. In my case the coil box lid is in the way and the box bolts have to be loosened to get the lid off. This reminds me that I haven’t had to change a coil in 7 or 8 years. (looking at the bright side where ever I can find it.) The dark area in the coil photo shows where I notched the wood for the lid. I had good patterns and photos but it still had the problem. I need to cut a notch for the hood rod head too.

I thought the head should be removed at this point to. I feared the gasket was the root of the coolant in the oil problem. It turned out not to be. The two rear head bolts are tucked under the firewall recess. My socket wrench won’t go on them. One was stubborn and required making a bar to hold my end wrench down. It felt like the cheater bar was bending my end wrench but things finally broke loose without damage. My Uncle George gave me that Craftsman set in 1964.
I felt as though I had removed everything but the body. Well guess what! The crankcase arms are wider that the space between the body wood and brackets at that point. This may well be my fault but the same problem exists with my ’15 Runabout. Now the body bolts have to be loosened on one side and the body lifted about an inch.

I left the project yesterday with the engine standing on end and no sign of the washer. I found I can manage 5 hours and after a nap another hour or two. I haven’t resorted to violence but remember a ’19 Overland I had. The head had been broken in a way that looked like a frustrated mechanic took a sledge hammer to it. But I digress. While this has been somewhat frustrating it probably is a good chance to clean, oil and adjust everything. We have enjoyed a lot of driving in this car with a minimum of problems. Many parts are in much better shape than I expected to find them. Today I will remove the crankcase. I can’t imaging where that washer went. Perhaps into the drums?
Rich

[Dallas Landers]

What joy and frustration these little fords bring us. I think she just wanted some of your attension. She should be happy for many more miles and smiles after spending some quallity time with her.

[Rich Eagle]

That is all true Dallas.
I started yesterday pushing the magnets on wires in every direction I could with the engine vertical. I was starting to doubt my sanity. Where could it be. Then in preparation to remove the crankcase I tipped it backward. At the angle shown I heard the sound of the washer hit the floor. That was as wonderful as losing it was horrible. I will never know where it was but it doesn't matter.

I will still remove the pan as most of the bolts were removed. I had done a lot of cleaning in preparation for re-installation. It will be much easier with out the black, greasy, slimy crud on everything although it is a great preservative I have found. As it is nearly an eighth of an inch thick I practice my skills with a putty knife followed by dry and solvent soaked rags to get the worst of the crud off. This saves a lot off solvent when I go to the wash pan. In the spirit of Steve Jelf and other thrift heroes I save the paper packing that parts come in, smooth it out and save it on a roll. This is great to drop on the floor to catch all the little grimy clumps that smear ooze everywhere. I don't want it on the carpet. A can to scoop it into is also handy. I will think of a good use for it someday. Perhaps a dandy wood stain.

I enjoy the fact that this car uses parts discarded from use that still are usable. The pits and corrosion is charming to me in it's own way. Also shown is my answer to slowing down the pan bolt leaks. I made copper washers and cut donuts of plastic tubing to seal the oversize bolt holes. Not perfect but better that other fixes I have tried.

At long last I can finish cleaning parts and simply put the engine back in place. What else could go wrong?
Since I had no real plans for the week this had been a good thing to do in many ways. The weather is great for this and car work is always a nice pastime. This car doesn't require the perfection of the better restorations and I can appreciate how average mechanics saw things back in those days repairing well used Fords.
The Coupe has served us well for many trouble free miles. And this one I brought on myself. Well, out to the garage.
Rich

[Rich Eagle]

Progress is going well on reassembly and installation. I see that vendors are offering an o-ring seal kit for the inspection cover bolts but it is required to countersink the bolt holes for them. I was cutting new donuts for my solution. I don't have the right size tubing so I stretch these on. By stretching them on a tapered punch they are easier to persuade on the bolt. Leaving them on the punch overnight works best. They soon shrink back tight and I don't have to modify the holes. Most of the plastic pushes into the hole and little is seen under the washer.

I also noticed my valve spring caps have been "renewed" with some braising. It seems to have worn well. I don't see this procedure discuses it the service manual or the flat rate book. I wonder how common it was.

[RajoRacer]

Rich - run down to your local Lowes - they have tin roof sealing washers - rubber seal with aluminum washer - I install on every engine that comes out of here !

[Rich Eagle]

I'll bet those work really well Steve.
I have had trouble getting the hogshead in without tearing up the rear gasket. I cut this out of sheet to protect the gasket and help slide the hogshead past the ball cap. It worked well.

Leaving the steering bracket in place seemed like a good idea but the suspended motor got away from me and wiped out the grease cup. Oops! Looking for a spare I found this one with a damaged cup. It seemed only right to salvage the lower part and use the good cup on it. It was one of the old type with a seal.

Fortunately the cup fit the housing. I say that remembering my old friend, the late "Fireball Erickson", who insisted there were two sizes of that 3/4" thread, a large and a small. I couldn't convince him that 3/4 was 3/4.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Rich,

Why do you put the hogshead on after the engine is installed? It's a pain to do it then. I always put it on before the engine goes in the car, then just slip the 4th main in place.

[Wayne Sheldon]

3/4 may in fact be 3/4, however some manufacturers did use a different thread pitch. I have a small box of (not enough) miscellaneous grease cups. Along with a number of complete good cups, are several parts and pieces, some in good condition, some, not so good. Among those, are several perfectly good bottoms, and tops that are anywhere from nice to nasty. Many of those tops and bottoms will not fit together and work. These same bottoms and tops I can find complete units that interchange and work fine, so I know the threads are good. I often will exchange a rough, pitted or dented top, for a nicer one I have that doesn't fit any of the loose bottoms I have.
A couple years ago, I had "fun" fixing the grease cup for my '15's fan. It came with a damaged but actual genuine original female thread bottom mounted on the original hollow fan shaft bolt. However, the threaded area for the cup was damaged beyond use. Wanting to use the right piece I had, and not destroy any good complete grease cups I had in the process, took a bit of finagling. I took a standard common bottom I had several of (condition was poor), hacksawed off the threaded for the cup area, and after a bit of grinding, brazed it together with the original female base. Now I had a decent looking rare base, but none of the spare cups I had fit it. So, using a thread file, I altered the threads enough to work. Working with a bit of valve lapping compound, made it work more smoothly. I left it snug enough to hopefully not vibrate off should I ever get the car running.

[Rich Eagle]

Erickson had a Studebaker and that may be where the mismatched caps came from.

I will mention that if you have to remove the hogshead a Coupe with suicide doors is much easier than most other Ts. The doors swing out of the way giving wonderful access.

While I'm at it I am oiling the cross shaft holes. these are one of the most neglected items and any time you have the floorboards out is a good time to give this attention.

Maybe too insignificant to mention, but I will, are the starter and generator cover screws. Mine was buggered up as many are. I have zinc and nickle plated ones that would work but look out of place on this car. I decided it was worth the time to repair the slot. Metal isn't missing but pushed out of place. It isn't difficult to pound it back and file a bit to get a slot that works right. I have saved many original screws this way for what it's worth.

Also, I noticed one was coarse thread and one was fine thread. Is there anyone out there who knows or cares what is really right?

[Fordwright]

It's those tiny details that give a vintage auto it's true value.

[John Warren]

Every one that has worked on a Model t very long has dropped something in to the transmission, me too! A friend was successful retrieving THE WASHER after several of us had also given it a few tries. This was over a two week time period. He called me all excited and got my voice mail. I kept that voice mail for many years because it was so wonderful to hear that much excitement. You mentioned that feeling. So how are you doing on it now? It looked like you had it about whipped.

[Rich Eagle]

Thanks for asking John. I could write a book about all the embarrassing moments I've had with Ts but instead I'll just draw cartoons. In 58 years, thousands of miles and a dozen cars some backfires will happen. But the last two engine tear-downs could have been prevented. Old age? Or just cheap entertainment.
I could have had it back on the road but I'm taking time to clean things better and improve some areas. I have been cleaning all the electrical connections without disturbing the old tattered look outside such as the starter terminal. My plug wires look shabby but there is good continuity so I just clean the connector centers.

We talk about choices. The bolt and stud at left were my first quick fix to hold the wishbone cap. I hadn't planned on driving the car that much so it seemed OK. A better choice now would be to use my original studs (center). I like to have original parts if practical. But as I won't be seeing them and one hole was stripped and tapped deeper I made two new studs to go there. The old studs have grooves worn by the cap and tired old threads but they are great patterns.

Each part becomes a decision of what is safe, authentic or visual pleasing. You have to make up what is right or wrong or just what you like as you go along.
This unplanned renewal has been a great exercise and should give the Coupe several more years of enjoyable service. Maybe we should tear all the cars down every few years just for fun and safety.
Rich

[Thorlick]

Rich, been there, done that.

Quite some time ago a good friend told me how he got stuff out of his first T's transmission. I know it has been a while since I heard this story, long before I attended his memorial service about 15 years ago.

When George was a kid he rounded up three other young aspiring mechanics and after pooling resources they procured a Model T Ford. This particular car had a firewall with a coil box on it... and pretty much nothing else. The kids took turns driving the bug around Eagle Rock, California (you have to write California out because in those pre-WWII years no school kid knew what CA was). Eventually some condition required one of the mechanics to open the access door on top of the transmission cover, which on this particular car was on top of the engine pan but behind the engine block and the firewall. George said he looked up in time to see the ignition key performing a graceful swan dive into the nether regions of the transmission.

A mechanics conference was convened and a plan was arrived at. With each wheel attended to by a journeyman mechanic they lifted the bug and flipped it over allowing the key to reappear onto the no longer pristine driveway. The car was righted, re-oiled and watered and driven on down to cut donuts on the local Eagle Rock high school football field.

George didn't say whose driveway was involved nor if the mechanic survived his father's return home that evening.

Rich, it would have been much easier to retrieve that washer by just flipping that coupe over! Since you are a bit older than George was perhaps you could have just purchased a replacement washer and been done with it! ... if you could find three other guys to contribute enough cash to afford that replacement washer!

(true story... ask George)TH

[Rich Eagle]

That's a great story Terry. I spent a lot of time considering leaving the washer there but the thought of catastrophe won out.
Switching my end wrenches to tighten and torquing to "about right" I have the engine back in and it runs. In the interest of curiosity and conservation I am reusing the old gaskets in most places. The head gasket is fiber with metal around the combustion chamber. Lots of copper-coat is applied.

The pan gaskets were a good fiber material and not cork. They stayed bonded to one surface except for the spot shown. I used Form a Gasket #2 on it. Holding it in place with string also keeps a guide bolt in place for positioning the crankcase.

Finally I gave the assembly a good coat of enamel in hopes that will do some sealing. After cleaning the crankcase there were several patches of bare metal showing and the paint will help that.

The rest of the engine has a mix of old paint, bare metal, rust and dried grime that I find pleasing to me. As it becomes oily and dirty that will be fine too. While all this is far from the way most of us enjoy the cars this has become fun and a different way of enjoying a Model T. I see a couple oil leaks already and will wedge some string or cloth in the cracks.

I'll report back when it sees the road.
Thanks
Rich

[Rich Eagle]

I took the Coupe for a short run this morning and all was working well.

Hopefully this concludes this thread. The carb which hasn't leaked in 7 years left a puddle on the floor yesterday. A bump on the bowl stopped that. An oil leak from the "left side of the front wishbone" was stopped by wedging some cloth in the crack where the hogshead, block and pan meet next to the starter. Only a quarter sized spot appeared overnight. Warming up the engine stopped a few for now.
Thanks for the support, interest and suggestions.
Rich

[Wayne Sheldon]

Wonderful!
Congratulations.

[Dallas Landers]

Thats great Rich. I feel better now I know you will have breakfast.
Thanks for posting progress and repairs. I havnt done anything on the T's latley but enjoy watching others get things done.