Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Mon May 25, 2020 3:30 pm

I am learning about these wheels that I have on our 1923 Canadian Coupe

There are 2 different kind of lugs, ones with a flat nut and ones with a conical nut.

One side of the car has the flat ones the other side the conical ones.

Which one is correct or are both correct?
Attachments
20200517_114250.jpg
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


Wayfarer
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:04 pm
First Name: Cory
Last Name: Woerth
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 26 engine on a stand, Canadian '23 center door
Location: Colorado Springs CO
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Wayfarer » Mon May 25, 2020 4:15 pm

my Canadian '23 ( engine is December '22) center door has the flat ones. Some of them are stamped "Kelsey" and some are not

what rims are on your car ?

right now mine has a pair of Ford 2845C, and a pair of Ford 2845D rims. the spare rim was a 2845D also, but is bent so badly I took it off the car.

I'd like to have a set of 5 of the Kelsey 2845 rims

User avatar

CudaMan
Posts: 2385
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:17 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Strange
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Cut Off Touring (now a pickup)
Location: Hillsboro, MO
MTFCA Number: 30944
MTFCI Number: 23667
Board Member Since: 2013

Re: Kelsey loose lug-wheels

Post by CudaMan » Mon May 25, 2020 4:19 pm

Kelsey wheels use loose lugs with flat back nuts and have felloes and rims like this:
Attachments
kelsey_rim_and_felloe.jpg
kelsey_lug_and_nut.jpg
kelsey_88_rim_with_lug.jpg
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)

User avatar

CudaMan
Posts: 2385
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:17 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Strange
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Cut Off Touring (now a pickup)
Location: Hillsboro, MO
MTFCA Number: 30944
MTFCI Number: 23667
Board Member Since: 2013

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by CudaMan » Mon May 25, 2020 4:28 pm

I wonder if a prior owner cut a taper into some of your loose lugs so that they would work with the cone nuts.

If you want to switch to all flat nuts, the vendors sell modern reproductions of the lugs and nuts. Unfortunately the modern lugs will not have the embossing.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2846B.aspx

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2848B.aspx

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2847.aspx
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)


Wayfarer
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:04 pm
First Name: Cory
Last Name: Woerth
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 26 engine on a stand, Canadian '23 center door
Location: Colorado Springs CO
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Wayfarer » Mon May 25, 2020 4:41 pm

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1434340728

link to previous thread with chart showing rim styles. below that is part numbers for lugs, but no pictures.


OilyBill
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:51 pm
First Name: William
Last Name: May
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Runabout
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Kelsey loose lug wheels

Post by OilyBill » Mon May 25, 2020 4:48 pm

Probably changed out sometime in the past, when they couldn't get the correct replacement.
What you might want to do, is ask if anyone wants to swap, so you get a full set of the ones you want, they they get a full set of the ones they want.
This probably happened a LOT in the depression, so I imagine there are a LOT of cars with mismatched rims and hardware. This is something that would bother me until I got them all the same.
Just the way I am.
I don't think it makes any real difference, though.


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose lug-wheels

Post by Allan » Mon May 25, 2020 8:56 pm

Not all Kelsey 88 rims have that rolled in groove which clamps down on the wheel felloe. These have that slot in the rim where the loose lug engages. This lets water in and makes rust a problem. The discontinuity in the surface on which the lug engages also leads to premature wear if the lugs are not kept tight.
The better Kelsey 88 rims have a flat base where the tyre fits, and a continuous steel band around the rim which engages on the felloe. These rims are easier to mount truly using the band as a reference in relation to the felloe. They do not have the same rust problems and the land for the lug is easily repaired if necessary.
Chris, being a Canadian car, do the spokes have the alternating tapers, outside to inside, on the hub end of the spokes. All our Australian ones do.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Mon May 25, 2020 10:18 pm

The spokes I removed had the alternating taper.
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


D Stroud
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Stroud
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 Coupe
Location: Mound City, MO 64470
Board Member Since: 2011

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by D Stroud » Wed May 27, 2020 6:30 am

I had a pair of the Kelsey loose lug rims that had the "slot" pressed into them as Allan described. I used some RTV sealant on the inside of the slots to keep any water out after they had been sandblasted and painted. Worked good for me. Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.

User avatar

Hap_Tucker
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:58 pm
First Name: Hap
Last Name: Tucker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 cut off touring; 1918 touring; 1922 Speedster
Location: Sumter, SC
MTFCA Number: 100
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Hap_Tucker » Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm

Chris,

Short answer: As mentioned above the flat sided demountable rim nut (part number 2848B – Kelsey wheels USA and Canada) goes with the flat sided loose lug (also called Clamp in the Ford Price List of Parts) (part number 2846B).

The demountable rim nut with the tapered shoulder (part number 2848) were first used with the Hayes fixed lug style rims and wheels. They were also used later with the Ford USA supplied fixed lug rim and wheel. Still later they were used with loose lug rims part number 2845-D used with the loose lug or loose clamp part number 2846-D that had the recess for the tapered shoulder to fit into.

Caution: While some of the parts will fit other wheels – sometimes that is NOT safe. For example, you can attach a Ford 2845-B loose lug Rim or a Ford 2846-B loose lug Rim to a Kelsey felloe. But, the Kelsey felloe normally will NOT have a cup around the valve stem to keep the 2845-B rim or 2845D rim from rotating on the wheel. Front wheel without brakes or engine torque is not as big an issue. But on the rear wheels the rim rotates when you apply hard braking or acceleration and the valve stem is cut. Not a safety issue if you have a flat as you come to stop in your drive way. But if you are going 30 mph, brake hard and the rear wheel goes flat at 25 mph etc. – you could loose control of the car.

Recommend you study the prior postings or take photos of each fellow showing if the valve stem does or does not have a cup around it. A photo of each rim – does it have a lug around the valve stem that fits into the felloe cup? Or does it have the Kelsey lug that fits over the rim bolt to keep it from moving or turning on the felloe?

Do you have all the same type of rim? And if so which type? My recommendation would be to have a set of wheels and rims where you could put any rim on any wheel. It simplifies flats later on. For 1923 the Canadian production line would have had Kelsey demountable rims, Kelsey demountable rim nuts and Kelsey wheels.

And remember there were aftermarket companies as well as other cars (Ford USA, Chevy, etc. that also used 30 x 3 1/2 inch clinchers).

That your wheels have the Canadian style spokes is promising. Ford USA did not do that to my knowledge. So that increases the chances that the wheel/felloes are Canadian Ford. (But as mentioned above Kelsey supplied other makes also.)

Some photos showing the wheel felloes, rims, should help clear this up. The previous posting contains enough information to solve the questions – but they are not all neatly put in one location. (That is on my “when I get retired “to-do-list.” Hopefully someone will beat me to that.

Note the Model T Ford Club International Judging Guidelines 7th edition under the 1923 Canadian supplement only had the Kelsey loose lug wheels listed as the demountables provided by Ford of Canada.

Good luck with your project.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Wed May 27, 2020 11:06 pm

Here are a couple pics of the felloe.
Notice the date- 5 23
Also Kelsey Wheel
Windsor Ontario Canada

I have 3 of the Kelsey 88 rims.
Attachments
20200517_114309.jpg
20200517_114333.jpg
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Wed May 27, 2020 11:08 pm

Hap, I have also read most of the info in the links, some great info in there that needs to be put together like you say!
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Wed May 27, 2020 11:29 pm

Look what I found.

Canadian Patents Database / Patent 197890 Summary

(12) Patent: (11) CA 197890
(21) Application Number: 197890

DEMOUNTABLE RIM CLAMP
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


D Stroud
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Stroud
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 Coupe
Location: Mound City, MO 64470
Board Member Since: 2011

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by D Stroud » Thu May 28, 2020 3:08 am

What Hap said!!! ;) ;) Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Thu May 28, 2020 4:58 am

In addition to Hap's posting, when I discovered my barn fresh 1925 Canadian sourced buckboard, it had 5 Kelsey 88 rims, four of which were dated 25-3 and one 25-2. These rims were the type with the solid land around the rim rather than the groove, and all were loose lug types. Until I bought this car, my general belief was that in 1925 the Canadians finally used fixed lug rims as used in the USA. I found two other cars with low body numbers,[ these being built under contract to Ford in Geelong by Duncan and Fraser in Adelaide] and both these also had loose lug wheels. However cars with later body numbers do have fixed lug wheels, so it looks like the change was made later in 1925.

I wonder if the fossil record of this change can be pinpointed by reference to Canadian produced cars with Ford factory bodies.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Thu May 28, 2020 11:53 am

More on the Canadian patent 197890

Looks like a 1919 US patent filed in Canada in 1920

https://www.ic.gc.ca/opic-cipo/cpd/eng/ ... sic_search

(72) Inventors :
WILLIAM N. BOOTH (Not Available)
(73) Owners :
WILLIAM N. BOOTH (Not Available)
(45) Issued: 1920-03-09

The patent clearly shows a flat nut, not the conical ones I have. The patent does not even show both sides of the clamp.

It seems to be patenting the L-shape of the clamp more than anything else, to prevent the lug from turning.

Patent 197890 Drawing.gif
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Thu May 28, 2020 12:28 pm

Found the equivalent US patent 1,579,067 but this one dated 1926

US1579067-drawings-page-1.png
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Thu May 28, 2020 12:48 pm

Found US patent 1,475,167 for what looks like the driving lug on the Kelsey 88 rim.

US1475167-drawings-page-1.png
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Thu May 28, 2020 12:50 pm

Found more interesting stuff.

There are some good pictures of the cross-section of their wheels & rims further down the page.

This link is about the Kelsey, Herbert Co.
http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/k/kelsey_ ... erbert.htm

This mentions them supplying bodies to Ford and others.

In 1910 they stated a change of focus.

The May 21, 1910 issue of the American Stationer reported on the firm’s withdrawal from the fancy goods business:

“The Ames-Bonner Co., has taken over the mirrors formerly carried by the Kelsey, Herbert Co. The Kelsey, Herbert Co. has retired entirely from the fancy goods business, and henceforth will devote itself to an auto wheel big with promise.”

Also notice the references to workers under 18 years old and 14-16 years old.
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Thu May 28, 2020 1:08 pm

This is fun, I'm starting to feel like Rob Heyen!

Clipping found in Detroit Free Press in Detroit, Michigan on Nov 11, 1952. William N Booth Obituary

WILLIAM N. BOOTH Former chief engineer of the Kelsey-Hayes Wheel Co. and inventor of the de-mountable rim auto wheel, Mr. Booth died Sunday In West Palm Beach, Fla. He was 86.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/3968866 ... -obituary/

.... and he was born a Canadian!
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Thu May 28, 2020 9:42 pm

Chris, the term "driving lug" is quite misleading. Is that description part of the patent paperwork? The purpose of that lug is simply to stop the rim spinning on the felloe If the lug bolts get loose. Other brands used a collar around the valve stem hole and a corresponding smaller collar around the valve stem hole on the rim. On fixed lug rims neither was necessary.
On all clincher rims the "drive" is catered for by the wedging effect of the rim on the felloe. All the four bolts/lugs/nuts have to do is maintain the tension to keep the wedge tight. On badly worn rims/felloes, the fixed lugs on that type of rim can register on the outer edge of the felloe. In such cases, the four lugs do become 'drive' lugs. I have seen this on loose lug rims too. When this happens, the bridge lug wears and also cuts a groove in the bolt over which it is fitted.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Hap_Tucker
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:58 pm
First Name: Hap
Last Name: Tucker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 cut off touring; 1918 touring; 1922 Speedster
Location: Sumter, SC
MTFCA Number: 100
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Hap_Tucker » Sat May 30, 2020 11:58 am

Allan,

Yes, the patent application used the term "Driving Lug" for that part. See the expanded view from Chris' earlier posting:
Driving Lug circled in red -.jpg
Ref you question of when were the fixed lug Kelsey rims introduced in Canada's production. The MTFCI Seventh Edition for the 1920-1924 state "Kelsey rims, with removable tabs..." For 1925 they have they had, "Kelsey rims used with demountable rims..." They dropped the "with removable tabs" from the entry.

From memory (not nearly as good as written or photograph information) I believe it was Roger Gardner author of "Ford Ahead - A History of The Colonial Motor Company Limited" (New Zealand) who shared something along the following: That he believed Ford of Canada tended to ship the older style parts to the countries overseas and used the newer style parts in Canada's production first. That was based on his observations.

Additionally, when Ford of Canada introduced a new part -- there would have been many of the older style parts already in the overseas countries as well as some older style parts that had recently been shipped. That would have happened even if they did not purposefully send all or most of the remaining older style parts overseas to get rid of them.

And in many cases, there would be an overlap period when both old style parts and new style parts were used. For example, there was approximately a six month overlap during USA production when both the two-door valve cover engine block and the single valve cover engine block were being produced and installed in new cars.

In the case of Ford of Canada wheels 1924-1925 -- they would need to make sure that all four wheels and 5 rims would be for the same style wheel and rim (Kelsey loose lug or Kelsey fixed lug). But I suspect there would have been some overlap when production used either style but the same single style on any individual car. I would assume that similar cases of overlap occurred in New Zealand, Australia etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Sat May 30, 2020 9:28 pm

Thanks Hap. So officially, it is a driving lug, even though it does not serve that purpose.
Your thoughts on the 1925 adoption of the fixed lug rims by Canada is in line with the fossil evidence of which I was aware. I was not aware of the late 1925 adoption of same, attributing fixed lug rims to all our 25 models.
Our 1925 models are unique. By then Ford had withdrawn agencies/distributorships from the various states, and had taken over production of the cars in Australia. However, the new Geelong Ford plant was still under construction, so as a stop gap, Duncan and Fraser in Adelaide were contracted to supply bodies. These were assembled onto imported chassis in the ex Dalgety woolstore in Geelong. They are known as Dalgety Fords in Australia. For the first time, all T models had the same bodies.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:46 pm

Another discovery - No. 88 30 x 3 1/2 on inside of felloe
Attachments
20200528_205643.jpg
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:48 pm

And yet another discrepancy, 2 different felloes, one weighs 6 lbs. and the other type weighs 8 lbs.

The heavier 2 are stamped Kelsey and have date codes, the other 2 have no markings.
Attachments
20200529_112953.jpg
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:52 pm

Chris, I presume both ave the stamped in rests on which the loose lugs engage. Is the inside land on the felloe the same width? Are they exactly the same diameter? The fixed lug felloes on US wheels are slightly smaller diameter on the inside, which means the spokes the vendors sell are too short to use when rebuilding Canadian loose lug wheels.

Allan from down under.


SteveTN
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 am
First Name: Steve
Last Name: in Tennessee
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 Cuttoff
Location: Whiskey Creek

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by SteveTN » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:41 pm

Against my better judgement I am posting in PDF the results of my research on the rim issue. Hap has offered some of this in his earlier post. The short of it is that not all loose lug rims are Kelsey, nor are they all Firestone. Ford played with this for a couple of years. These rims and the felloes that go with them are out there but are not - as best I can tell - widely known about.

I say "against my better judgement" because I have no interest in starting a forum fire storm ala kevlar bands etc.

The summary is based on my own research. If it is of help to someone then wonderful.
Attachments
Steve's Rim Guide.pdf
(735.26 KiB) Downloaded 109 times

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:00 pm

On closer inspection the lighter ones do in fact have Kelsey Wheel stamped on them.

I believe the important dimensions are the same - ie. where the rim meets the felloe front & back.
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:10 pm

Steve, thanks for your PDF file.

I find it interesting how much we do or don't know about just one small subject.
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


SteveTN
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 am
First Name: Steve
Last Name: in Tennessee
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 Cuttoff
Location: Whiskey Creek

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by SteveTN » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:28 pm

I do not claim it to be perfectly correct, hence the several caveats throughout. But I think the wheel issue is one of those areas with multiple suppliers over a period of time. And I think (I do not know) that in some cases a variation was sort of regionally seen or focused. It appears that as Ford began to move toward demountable rims that they played around with different ideas until finally settling on the Hayes solution. To that end it would not surprise me at all to find Hayes or Kelsey's name on any wheel/rim configuration as they were all trying to get and keep the business with Ford.

And none of this touches on the aftermarket wheels and rims.

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:47 pm

I now have 4 matching felloes (or is it felly?)

The dates are from the top 10-24 3-24 4-24 5-23
Attachments
20200619_132047.jpg
20200619_132137.jpg
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:39 pm

Chris, somewhere in these posts reference was made to how the rims contact the felloes on the outside and the inside edges. In my observations of Kelsey loose lug rims and later fixed lug rims used on our 1925 models, neither type binds on both edges of the felloe.

On sound Kelsey loose lug felloes, a rim in good condition is wedged onto the outer felloe land as the lug nuts are tightened. This jamming is what gives the rim its 'drive'. It is quite easy to insert a credit card between the rim and the inner land on the felloe.

On fixed lug type wheels, the inner land on the felloe is wider than the outer land. As the lug nuts are tightened the rim is jammed onto the wider inner land, and this gives it its 'drive'. When both rim and felloe are in good condition, the fixed lug sits proud of the outer face of the felloe and the credit card will insert between the felloe and rim on the outer edge. On some felloes, the outer land has even been eliminated, as it serves no purpose in mounting the rim.

Just remember, if you are rebuilding Canadian wheels, the new spokes on offer do not have the front to back, alternating taper at the hub. Also, the Kelsey loose lug spokes are longer than the usual US spokes used in fixed lug rims.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.


Dan Hatch
Posts: 4111
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:31 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Hatch
Location: Alabama
MTFCA Number: 49974

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Dan Hatch » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:06 am

Kelsey 88 rims were not just used in Canada. I had a barnfind unrestored 23 touring that came for Neb. It was a USA car. Had 4 on the ground and spare rim was 88.
Also , I took 4 NOS 88 rims out of a Ford dealer in Tn that closed in 1930.Dan


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:02 am

Dan, can you recall if the spokes at the hub were tapered front to back alternately, as well as the usual taper radially? Other US wheels did not have that characteristic, so spokes could be assembled in any order.

Allan from down under.


Dan Hatch
Posts: 4111
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:31 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Hatch
Location: Alabama
MTFCA Number: 49974

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Dan Hatch » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:32 am

No they were not. I had to replace two wheels on that car and I used two NOS wheels I had brought years before at Charlotte Swap meet. Dan


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:08 am

Well, that IS interesting! One company, two different plants, two different methods of manufacture. Who'd have thunk it? Thanks Dan.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:23 pm

Looking at the dates on the felloes above and my serial # C414,xxx it seems that only 1 of them could have came on the car.

Canadian production number snippet
May 31, 1923 C412,290
Jun 30, 1023 C419,611

Doing a little math, my car was built on June 10, 1923
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:29 pm

Chris, I have never taken notice of dates stamped in felloes before. Next time I have the rims off Henrietta I will take a look. I did note the rim dates. Four were dated 3 25 and the fifth was 2 25.
Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
ChrisB
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Brancaccio
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Roadster 1915 Coupelet 1923 Coupe 1926 Touring
Location: Calgary AB
MTFCA Number: 443
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23136
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by ChrisB » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:57 pm

Do you have any pics of the rim dates?

All my rims have tires mounted.
Chris Brancaccio
MTFCA Webmaster
MTFCA Forum Admin


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by Allan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:06 pm

Chris, I have one photo of a 3 - 25 rim on my new phone, but I need you to take me through the upload process again! :D
The dates are just like the ones posted in your felloe photos. The No 88 and 30 x 3 1/2 is set out in the same way. Having the stampings in a rim is a reasonable indication that the rim is a good one. Being the mobile rust traps that they are, the lettering is usually beyond being readable.

Allan from down under.


D Stroud
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Stroud
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 Coupe
Location: Mound City, MO 64470
Board Member Since: 2011

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by D Stroud » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:43 am

I salvaged a pair of rear wheels back in the early '90s that were on a trailer made from a T frame and rear axle with an aftermarket pickup type bed. I removed the rear hubs and installed front hubs for the '23 TT (the one that Dallas has now) that I was putting together. Those wheels had the "trapezoidal" type spokes and were VERY easy to disassemble and reassemble. When the hub was installed and tightened up, they pushed out radially to really tighten up the spokes in the wheel. They were Kelsey #88 wheels, and as I recall, and I may well be wrong, the rims fit very snugly on both the inner and outer edges of the felloe. Dallas may be able to confirm that. If those wheels were from Canadian manufacture, I have no idea how they ended up here in NW MO. Why not all of the wheelwrights made them that way back in the day, or now, I don't understand. Especially with Ford, it seems to me that they would have been much easier to assemble, not knowing how they did back in the day. JMHO Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.


jiminbartow
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:55 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Patrick
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Coupe
Location: Bartow, FL
MTFCA Number: 50126
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Kelsey loose-lug wheels

Post by jiminbartow » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:16 pm

Page 280 of the Ford Service Bulletin Essentials book on the various demountable rims. Jim Patrick

94252D39-80E0-41A5-8DE1-56C46A6A84B3.jpeg

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic