Problem Installing Transmission Cover

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bill goodheart
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Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:44 pm

I relined the transmission Bands for my 1919 non starter touring. It is the first time I have ever done this. I have the engine out and it is on an engine stand. The bands are the removable ear type. Now I am trying to reinstall the Transmission Cover. I can't get the band ears close enough together to put the band tool clip on to hold them in place. I can get them together by using a 4" long x 3/8" bolt and tightening the nut very tight. The band tool will fit over the ears, but it is very tight and has to be forced. Of course then I can't get the bolts out. Did I some how mess up the band relining ? Any suggestions will be appreciated. I tried using a piece of wire twisted tightly around the ears, I can get them very close to fitting, but usually the wire breaks before they are close enough.
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:01 pm

What type of lining ?


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by John kuehn » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:11 pm

Could be the band linings are a little thick. Anything get changed? You mentioned that you have the engine on a engine stand. Same parts, replacement parts, rebuilding the engine or?

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:17 pm

Scandinavia Lining
I had the whole transmission apart, installed new triple gear bushings, also replaced the magneto coil ring.
I wondered if the band linings are too thick, don't know if that is possible


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:19 pm

Are you using all the same parts which were previously used except new linings? Some de-mountable ear bands are incompatible with the older hogs heads. If you are using the same bands, as before, then I would suspect the linings are too thick. Also another thing to account for is how you installed the linings on the bands. You should leave the band lining lengths as received from the manufacturer and leave about 3/16 beyond the end of the metal. Rivet the two ends and then work the lining toward the middle and place the other rivets.
Norm

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:40 pm

I am reinstalling the same bands. I relined them the same way described by Norm. If the linings are too thick what can be done about it. Do I need to rip out the lining and get different lining material?


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by John kuehn » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:46 pm

The correct length of the band linings are 24” as I remember. Others might know for sure. Some linings are to short and when you try to install them they won’t compress well Into the band well when trying to rivet them in if you leave about 3/16” beyond the end of the band.
For a while Scandinavia bands were made to short and not the 24” correct length. Originally they were made correct but the company changed and they just used the Scandinavia name but that’s another story.
You occasionally see the newer Scandanivia bands at Swap meets that are a little to short. People buy them only to find out later they were a little short.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by DanTreace » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:19 pm

First check that you fixed any out of round band. The proper way is to bend over a dia. of a drum or something and get the circle round so that before you re-line the band, the lugs are approx. 3 1/2" to 4" apart. That ensures you have round bands.



Bands that are not ready for re-lining, note how wide apart are the lugs.
drum mandrel for bands.jpg
drum mandrel for bands.jpg (109.67 KiB) Viewed 6973 times

These are ready

IMG_0704 (409x800) (409x800).jpg
100_9091 (1024x768).jpg
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:34 pm

John Kuehn
Thanks for the info on the correct band length. Unfortunately I didn't measure the ones I had before installing. During the riveting process they seemed to me to be too long if anything. I didn't have any problem leaving the 3/16" overlap on each end. The lining I used came from Langs, I think i got it a couple of years ago.

Dan Treace
The pictures of the bands not ready and ready for lining are very helpful. I didn't check for this at all and it may be the problem. I think that the bands had a lot more space between the ears before lining than the recommended 4 - 41/2 although I didn't measure that. At this point it seems that I should remove the lining I installed and start over. with new lining. Since I do not have any old drums to use as a mandrel is there anything that I could use instead ? Does anyone know what the actual drum diameter should be.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by George Mills » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:07 am

Did you change to new band springs as part of your overhaul?

If you did you may have to ‘fit’ them for use. The new ones are really stiff, almost too stiff and I’ve found that to get things to work out, the springs need to be fully compressed in a vice one at a time, and then when fully squished, hit the vice handle with a dead blow hammer once or twice...springs come out just right from that point on 😊


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Adam » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:20 am

Post a picture of your bands. Maybe what was in the “Scandinavia” box isn’t a proper band material. You see this sometimes at swap meets and on eBay... There are some old-time band materials that are a bit too thick.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by DanTreace » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:45 am

Bill

The transmission drums are 7 1/2" in diameter. The shape of the band does impact the way the lining grips, so yes, I try to get the steel bands into shape by wrapping around a drum, and tapping with a ball pein hammer to get the band as round as possible, that ends up with around a 4" gap at the ears.

Band 4 inch gap.jpg
Since you have them re-lined, should be able to fit them anyway. Check first that none of the bands are riding on each other's edges, and they wrap pretty straight around the drums. Then use Vise Grips or some means to draw the ears to appro. 4". As you said that breaks the wire, go with heavy plastic type straps, the thicker ones. I use two, as the length isn't enough, so I loop two together. Those straps are tough. Should hold.

Then when you get the hogshead on, clip the plastic to withdraw. If a tiny piece should fall to the crankcase, its only plastic and not steel wire, so injury to the gears is so minimal if any.


Band ears wrapped in plastic wire ties
IMG_2808 (1024x768) (740x555) (680x510) (640x480).jpg
Finally, when you fit the nuts over the pedal shafts, use methods to keep from dropping a washer or nut! Some like to place the springs and washers and nuts on the reverse and brake shaft prior to fitting the hogshead, so all is done in one placement. That works, but normally I like to do the springs, washers and nuts separate.


Dental floss to keep from losing stuff into the abyss!
IMG_9915.JPG

Then with the hogshead seated, BUT not bolted in place, remove the plastic tie wraps.

Then proceed to completely seat the hogshead to do the final bolting, BUT, also fit the inspection cover with a couple of screws before you grab a handful of bolts and nuts for the crankcase to hogshead! You don't want to drop those either!
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:14 pm

Here are some pictures of my bands. When I put these on the transmission drums I can easily squeeze them together to 3" outside to outside of band ears. To fit the Langs band installation tool I need about 2 5/8". its the last 3/8" that I can't get. f I use the plastic tie wraps as suggested it should work without using the tool or at least I think it might. Tomorrows job !
DSCN1387 Post.JPG
DSCN1385 resized.JPG


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:38 pm

William

Two things:

1. try your best to get those rivet ears doubled over and sunk deep into the lining. If they are laying on top they will be worn off pretty quickly
2. Forget the band tool. Once you get the bands to close enough to get the tool installed, you will find that it is permanently trapped inside the hogs head, never to be removed again. They are a cruel joke and it is hard to believe anyone still sells them.
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Allan » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:31 am

William, those rivets need to be pounded home as Scott suggests. The tangs need to be well below the band surface. The fact they are not may well be why you cannot close the gap at the ears enough to fit the tool. The zip ties are a very good alternative clamp.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:14 pm

Thank You to everyone for your very helpful suggestions and observations. The comments about the rivets not being in deep enough was very helpful, when I was doing the riveting I thought they were OK, and I think they were in deeper than it looks in the picture. Anyway today I went over all 3 bands and pounded all the rivets in deeper, they definitely look better now.
I used the zip ties to hold the bands in place and managed to get the hogs head on. it is not bolted down yet and the brake and reverse pedals are not installed. Tomorrow is another day to do that, except I do have a Drs appointment in the morning and another Friday morning. So we'll see how those go, now I know why drs call us patients, we have to have a lot of patience when we are in the waiting room.
I did not want to remove that lining and start over, now with help of everyone here, I won't have to.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:38 am

I am reviving this thread to ask for help again. I got the original problem solved with the suggestion to use zip ties to hold the bands in place. Now I am very confused about the low speed pedal shaft arrangement. This car had bands with removable ears when I got it. The pedal shaft has the stubby end sticking out of the low speed notch as seen by the yellow arrow in the attached picture, The adjusting screw (red arrow) looks to me, like the type used for non-removable bands, Then there is a third piece (Blue Arrow). The left end has a "head" that rides against the slow speed notch as it slides on over the stub end of the shaft. The spring goes over the third piece and the left end goes inside the adjusting screw. Is this correct ? I didn't think there was supposed to be a third piece. Is this somebody's alternate way of modifying things to use the bands with removable ears or is something broken and need to get a new pedal shaft or adjusting screw ?
I am just getting back to work on the "T" after going through Lyme disease. Not too bad except for the extreme fatigue, Work for 15 minutes then rest for 4 hours. At first I thought it was because I will be turning 80 later this year. But then a trip to the ER to find out I had a tick buried deep in my right arm, causing Cellulitis and Lyme Disease. Took a bunch of antibiotics, now I am recovering and doing much better.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:45 am

Sorry !! I forgot to attach the picture. Here it is
DSCN1402_LI.jpg
DSCN1402_LI.jpg


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:58 am

You can mess with that, as it looks like someone made a stub to go into the hole of the original (now incorrect) adjuster bolt. Or buy this:
removable band adjustment screw.jpg
from here: https://www.modeltford.com/item/3419B.aspx
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Mark Chaffin » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:05 pm

Your demountable bands do not appear to be Ford factory bands. The ears also appear to be thicker which would add to your interference problem.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by DanTreace » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:42 pm

Mark is correct

Those bands are aftermarket, and the long tube like device is made to fit into the #3419 hollow adj. screw to serve the purpose of the later Ford design #3419B 'stubby' adj. screw. Your bands were made before the advent of Ford demountable bands. So the mfg. came up with that item.

See similar device in middle of adv. below:

IMG_1495 (700x525).jpg
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Mark

good catch

Dan

I wondered where that stub came from...I figured it was not something ginned up in a home garage

thank you both for great observations
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:40 pm

Mark: Thank you for noticing the bands, that explains a lot of the problems I was having. Dan: Thank you for sending that old advertising for the non Ford bands, they look exactly like the ones I have. Now, what should I do about it? If I buy the adjusting screw, discard that tube shaped thing will these bands still work ? Or, will the thicker ears still cause problems? I expect the best answer is to find a set of the Ford bands as well as get the correct adjusting screw for the removable ears. Does anyone have a set of the Ford bands (Narrow brake drum) for sale, for me the best thing would be to find a set all relined. Thank You Everyone.
Let me know if any one has a set for sale.


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:40 pm

My opinion and it is opinion only: those bands were made to fit in a later hogs head, pre-Ford removable band design (almost certainly won't fit in an aluminum hog's head, though). Understanding what the designer intended, I don't see why they won't work when properly installed, though with the thick heads, you may not be able to use the "Best Quality" springs, as they may coil bind once band material "sets" and compresses a little.

Now, with that said, and I say this with respect...if I was your age, perhaps I wouldn't want to wrestle the hogs head again for a fit unless I was SURE things would fit. That would be up to you. If you work the new rivets out very carefully and remove the lining carefully as well, I don't see a compelling reason to not fit them to another set of FORD bands.

Good luck and hope you're feeling up to snuff soon. I think you're lucky to have caught that soon, as chronic issues with Lyme can be tough on some people as your DR has likely advised.
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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:21 pm

After looking closer at the band ears they are thicker than the originals. That would definitely be an issue getting them together. I would find some original Ford bands and make it an easier job to do for you and the next owner.
Good detective work from the forum finding the probable issue!
This isn’t the easiest job to do and anything to make it easier would be the thing to do.

Check out the classifieds. There are several guys who have lots of T parts they sell from time to time. Email them as they may can help you.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by RajoRacer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:00 pm

I have plenty of sets - 3 narrow & 2 narrow &1 wide.


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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by Allan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:28 pm

Not part of the problem, but on our RHD units the first gear band is the internally adjusted one. Rather than run the risk of dropping washers ans adjusting nuts once the hogshead is in place, I fit the washer and run the nut on two or three turns before I fit the hogshead. Is that not possible on LHD units?

Allan from down under.

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Re: Problem Installing Transmission Cover

Post by bill goodheart » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:14 pm

Steve,
How much for a set of the narrow original Ford bands with removable ears. If possible I would like a set that was relined, if not I still would be interested, if pricing is reasonable. Reply by e-mail to: wgoodheart@tds.net

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