Wheel bearing problem

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Steve Hughes
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Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:01 pm

Just got the engine in my car and got it on the road recently. I know I should have pulled the front wheels and cleaned and repacked the bearings before I ever took it on the road. But I didn't. Did about 100 mile drive the other day and all was well. I took a short drive a couple of days ago (about 3 or 4 miles) and when I got home the drivers side wheel bearing was smoking. After letting it cool, I pulled the wheel to check it out. The first thing that I discovered is that the last owner had assembled it with the spindles on the wrong side. The bearing had tightened up so tight it smoked. I got the spindles switched out and bearings pulled. The one that smoked inner bearing was toast. Cage fell apart and rollers all fell out. No problem. I got a new inner bearing and matching cup for that wheel. Today I drove out the old cup and installed the new one. The new cup is sloppy in the hub. I pulled it out and measured the ID of the hub and the OD of the cup (yes I verified that I had the right cup) and the difference is .054'"

What do you guys suggest I do with this? Can I shim between the hub and cup and get it to hold OK? Or is the hub ruined and I need to find a new hub / wheel? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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Walter Higgins
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Walter Higgins » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:12 pm

If you spun the race and the hub is now 0.054 oversize I'm wondering why you had to drive out the old one. If you had said that it was 0.005 loose I would have said just reinstall with Loctite Sleeve Retainer. Any chance you got the decimal point in the wrong place?

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Oldav8tor
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:16 pm

Sorry for your troubles....You never know what the guy before you did so take nothing for granted.

I am no expert - but if the inner cup is just loose enough that you can turn it with your fingers but otherwise fitting the space without an obvious big gap, you might consider using a product like Loctite 660. I've used it to hold the outer race on a front wheel and it worked great. Good luck!
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Topic author
Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:23 pm

Walter: No, I didn't misplace the decimal. I know it seems as if that would be the case. It did take quite a bit to get the old cup out, but the new cup drops in and you can visibly move it from side to side. I measured the bore with the T shaped bore gauge and caliper, and the cup OD with the caliper. 54 thousanths difference. 2.013" OD on the cup and 2.067" ID in the hub. I know that is too much for a locktite product without a shim to take up some space. Do you think this is doable or is the hub scrap?


1923Touring
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by 1923Touring » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:33 pm

Did the hub itself crack from all the heat?

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Walter Higgins
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Walter Higgins » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:39 pm

Steve Hughes wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:23 pm
Walter: No, I didn't misplace the decimal. I know it seems as if that would be the case. It did take quite a bit to get the old cup out, but the new cup drops in and you can visibly move it from side to side. I measured the bore with the T shaped bore gauge and caliper, and the cup OD with the caliper. 54 thousanths difference. 2.013" OD on the cup and 2.067" ID in the hub. I know that is too much for a locktite product without a shim to take up some space. Do you think this is doable or is the hub scrap?
Not to second guess you because it sounds like you're being thorough, but both the new and old race also measure the same o.d.?

In any event, 0.054 is too much clearance without any heroic efforts and I would say the hub is scrap unless it is a very significant early hub. Gluing in a shim is not kosher in my book.


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Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:42 pm

I see no sign of the hub being cracked. My suspicion is that when the bearing tightened up that the inner cup started spinning in the hub. The bearing then continued to tighten pressing the bearing tighter into the cup and expanding it as it wore the hub. That would explain why it took a lot of effort to get the old cup driven out.

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Walter Higgins
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Walter Higgins » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:44 pm

Steve Hughes wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:42 pm
I see no sign of the hub being cracked. My suspicion is that when the bearing tightened up that the inner cup started spinning in the hub. The bearing then continued to tighten pressing the bearing tighter into the cup and expanding it as it wore the hub. That would explain why it took a lot of effort to get the old cup driven out.
If that's the case the old race ought to measure 0.054 bigger than the new replacement. I'd like to see a picture of this thing!

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Oldav8tor
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:49 pm

Is the new race an actual Timken or from overseas? Like Walter said, I'm curious about the dimensions of old and new.
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Topic author
Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:56 pm

I have done some more measuring. Walter: Yes the old and new cups measure the same OD. I did mistype my measurements earlier. The actual ID and OD measurements are 2.767 and 2.713. I measured the hub inner diameter farther out where the grease seal rides and it measures 2.713. I guess that explains the effort to drive out the old cup. I did have to tap the new cup in. It didn't just drop in. But once in it is sloppy. Sounds like I need to check on a different hub or wheel.


Topic author
Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:56 pm

Tim: The new cup and bearing are Timken. Not China junk.

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Oldav8tor
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:15 pm

Steve,
If you do decide you need a hub, try Hank Lee. He's helped me more than once and heaven knows what he has stashed away...
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Topic author
Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:08 pm

Thanks for the recommendation Tim. I was going to ask if the new steel hubs that the vendors have are quality machined parts or not up to snuff reproductions like some are. Just wanting to know if it is worth the money for the new hub, or just look for a good original. I checked out my stash of wheels, but most of mine are the 21" for the later cars. The only earlier wheels that I had were rears.


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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by 2nighthawks » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:26 pm

Steve H. - This is sort of an "aside" that probably doesn't need to be said, but in a pinch (.....like on a long trip, and something like what happened to you happens and you just want to get home) a Model A outer front wheel bearing will actually work, but it's not really a good idea "long term". That's because the Model A bearing fits, except that that inner race is not threaded like the Model T,....it's just plain and slides right on the spindle and actually fit's quite well. In fact, it's not too uncommon to find a Model T with those "A" outer front wheel bearings in them, because the "left hand" and "right hand" threads on a pair of Model T bearings is what makes them cost about three times as much as the "un-threaded" Model A bearings. The reason that it's "not a good idea" is because the forces that caused your threaded Model T bearing to tighten up on the improperly installed reversed spindles are the forces that can cause the "easy-to-slide-on-the-spindle" unthreaded Model A inner race to spin on the spindle,....not a good thing! FWIW,.....harold

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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:09 pm

Steve,

I would attempt to take a sharp center punch and strike in about 16 spots where the race sits in the hub as equal as possible. clean very well first with carb cleaner and rag and of course the outside of the new race. Apply red Loc-Tite on the outside of the race and install. It should go in like nothing happened. Let sit overnight with the race side up. Should be good to go!

Hank


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Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:22 pm

Thanks Hank. If it were .020 out I think I would give that a try. I don't think that technique would work too well though with it .054" oversize. Tim recommended you for a source of a replacement hub. I think that I will replace the hub. Do you have one to sell? If so what are the terms?

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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:39 pm

Yeah.., Did not really read into it that deep, been busy. Sorry! Take a picture of yours and post. Some have a little different casting than others so I can match you up one!

Hank

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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by John Warren » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:57 pm

You can set Loc-tite by heating it. I have used it on crusher shafts with .063 slop with great success. You could do as Hank suggested, you may have to put a small amount of sealer on the back side of the bearing so the Loc-tite won't leak out before you can heat it up. Heat it up to about 200 deg. Having that clearance, you will have to heat it. Loc-tite will start degrading around 300 deg.
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Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:35 pm

Thanks for the suggestion John, but I think I will replace the hub. I will remember that for a future application though.

Hank: I will get some photos. Is there a particular area that I need to get details of?

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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:39 pm

Is the new race an actual Timken or from overseas?

Some Timken bearings are made in USA. Some are made in Canada. And it wouldn't surprise me if some are made in China. The important question isn't where it's made, but whether it's of good quality. I'm old enough to remember when Made in Japan meant cheap junk. Now Japanese factories turn out some of the highest quality goods on the planet. A lot of products come from China these days. Many of them are junk because that's what the suits in this country order to save a buck for the shareholders. There are Chinese factories perfectly capable of turning out goods of the highest quality. Whether they do depends on what their customers order.
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by bobt » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:47 am

My AMERICAN STANDARD toilet is made in Mexico. The only problem I have is with the company's name.


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Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:13 am

Hank: Here are the pictures you requested.
Attachments
Wheel hub 4 small.jpg
wheel hub 3 small.jpg
Wheel hub 2 small.jpg
Wheel hub 1 small.jpg

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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:39 pm

I got you one!


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Steve Hughes
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Re: Wheel bearing problem

Post by Steve Hughes » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:53 pm

Thanks Hank. PM me with the details. Cost, shipping, etc.

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