Why do I keep wearing tires out?
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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- First Name: Stephen
- Last Name: Heatherly
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Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Over the course of the last three years I have worn out two tires on the right front wheel of my 26 coupe. In this time I drove the car maybe 2,000 miles. The other three tires are still completely fine with plenty of life left. The right front wheel has a slight bit more wobble in it than the other three, about 1/4". Maybe this is my issue? I have considered if the toe in could be off causing my tires to wear quickly, but I would think that would cause both front tires to wear out, not just one. I'm pretty confident that one of these two things or perhaps a mixture of the two is causing my problem. What are your thoughts?
Thank you,
Stephen
Thank you,
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Check toe in first, check to ensure you have the correct spindle arms to year of components (miss matched parts fit but can change steering geometry), check proper caster angle. Rotate tires and check tire pressure! Watch out for high cambered roads, pure hell on a straight axle. Modern tires are just not holding up with their compounds, Just Sayin'.
Hank
Hank
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
You sat wobble. Do you have wood spokes or wire spokes? If you have wood, your spokes could be loose causing the wobble. And if it gets too bad, your wheel could collapse. Other possible causes of "Wobble" would be loose spindle bolts and bushings or other loose parts where the spindle arm connects to the spindle. The wheel bearings could also be loose and either need to be tightened or replaced. If you don't have it, order the book on "Front and Rear Axes" from the club. It will give you all the specifications. The spindles of the 26-27 have the spindle set higher on the axle than the earlier cars. so that the car sets lower. Both sides should match and be a mirror image of each other. Another thing you should do is rotate the wheels from time to time. The tires should last much longer than 2,000 miles, more like 15 or 20 thousand or more. My first T is a 26 Roadster and I have had it for 30 years and am still using the same tires. Likewise my other two T's are still using the new tires I bought when I got the cars.
Norm
Norm
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I have wood wheels on the car. I replaced the spokes in all of the wheels about 10 years ago and they are still just as solid and tight as when I put them together. The king pins are tight in the axle and the spindle bushings are still good and tight. I throughly went through the front end when I restored the car and routinely jack the car up and check for wear. There is absolutely nothing worn out or loose in the front end. The wheel bearings are good and tight. The axle camber is correct to the specifications given in the ford service manual. That's why this problem is so annoying.
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I would guess it is a tow in-out, problem, your car is probably heaver on the driver side causing it to track better causing the other tire to do most of the skidding. Jack the tires off the ground and mark them while spinning them, this will give you a true alignment line regardless of wobble. Set it back on the ground and roll it back and forth a couple of inches before you measure the tow in-out. 1/16" is plenty of tow-in.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I believe it probably is the toe in causing the problem. I measured off the wheel felloe when I adjusted it which is probably not the best way of doing it. I have tomorrow off of work. I'll check it out and report back here what I find out.
Thank you,
Stephen
Thank you,
Stephen
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I believe it probably is the toe in causing the problem. I measured off the wheel felloe when I adjusted it which is probably not the best way of doing it. I have tomorrow off of work. I'll check it out and report back here what I find out.
Thank you,
Stephen
Thank you,
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Stephan. If that doesn't pan out,try swapping the wheels and rims out side to side. That should confirm or rule out wheel problems one way or another. I think you may be on the right track though.
1925 mostly original coupe.
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
This is what I do when I set the tow in. With the car on a level surface, I take a carpenters square and find the place where the tire touches the square in front of the tire. Then I put a piece of tape in the center of the tire at that point and make a mark right at the center. I do this for both wheels. I measure the distance between the two wheels at that mark. Then I roll the car so that tape is at the rear of the tire with the square touching the tire. exactly one half turn and measure the distance again. If it is about 1/16 inch leave it as is. If not, I take out the pin from the end of the tie rod on the drivers side and adjust to the point where the slightly wider than the front. Note you make one turn of the tie rod before you can insert the pin. So find the closest to zero toe and then turn to adjust to lengthen the rod one turn and insert the pin.
Norm
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
You say the tire is wearing out. What is the wear pattern? How the tire is wearing will help solve the problem. bobt
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I did not read all the responses in detail so someone else may have asked this. Is the problem new?
On my car the axle was bent when I bought the car with the caster much different on one side than the other. I had to bend the axle to bring it back into alignment. I used a 6 foot pipe wrench with 1/8 inch aluminum wrapped around the axle to protect it. I used my floor jack on the end of the pipe wrench which actually lifted the car. After that I checked the camber on both sides and found them equal. I then set the caster to 5 degrees using the "Clinometer" application on my cell phone. I then set the toe-in to about 3/16. My spindles are not loose and the wheel bearings have the proper amount of tightness. Although my spokes are tight, my wheels wobble a bit but I am getting uniform wear, although the rear tires wear faster than the front because they supply the braking and acceleration.
Always check the toe-in after changing the caster. Because of the camber the toe-in changes if you change the caster.
As others have said, check to see if you have the right spindles on both sides. You can check this with the camber. Try exchanging the right wheel with the left. If all else fails, get another complete axle.
Neil
On my car the axle was bent when I bought the car with the caster much different on one side than the other. I had to bend the axle to bring it back into alignment. I used a 6 foot pipe wrench with 1/8 inch aluminum wrapped around the axle to protect it. I used my floor jack on the end of the pipe wrench which actually lifted the car. After that I checked the camber on both sides and found them equal. I then set the caster to 5 degrees using the "Clinometer" application on my cell phone. I then set the toe-in to about 3/16. My spindles are not loose and the wheel bearings have the proper amount of tightness. Although my spokes are tight, my wheels wobble a bit but I am getting uniform wear, although the rear tires wear faster than the front because they supply the braking and acceleration.
Always check the toe-in after changing the caster. Because of the camber the toe-in changes if you change the caster.
As others have said, check to see if you have the right spindles on both sides. You can check this with the camber. Try exchanging the right wheel with the left. If all else fails, get another complete axle.
Neil
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I think because Stephen is young, he is being a hot rodder/drifter! Typical Kid! LOL!
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Stephen: I have had that problem. Play with caster all you want but that won't fix it. Your axle is bent, between the perch and the king pin. Probably hit one too many curbs in its day.
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I'm in Jack's "camp" on this one - I made this simple alignment gauge - tells you in a glance which end is going where !
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I was not able to check the toe in today. I went out to where I have the car stored but couldn't measure the toe in. I need a helper next time I go out there. It's completely possible that the problem has always been there and I'm just now really noticing it. I had some old Bedford brand tires on the car which wore much better than the new ones that are on there now. It very well could be that the axle is bent. I'll have to do some more investigating to really know.
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Excessive Toe in or Toe out will wear both Tyres not just one. Also, the feathering effect on the Tyre will indicate
too much Toe in / out by the direction of the wear
Alan
too much Toe in / out by the direction of the wear
Alan
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
As you do your checking, also look out for a bent spindle arm. Compare right & left arms.
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Jerry, do you mean the stub axle where the wheel attaches or the arm the tie rod connects to?Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:48 amAs you do your checking, also look out for a bent spindle arm. Compare right & left arms.
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
I mean the arm that the tie rod connects to.Stephen_heatherly wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:20 amJerry, do you mean the stub axle where the wheel attaches or the arm the tie rod connects to?Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:48 amAs you do your checking, also look out for a bent spindle arm. Compare right & left arms.
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Another question. When you drive on a level road, does the car pull to one side? If it does, which way? It could be that the rear axle is offset from the front axle, or that wheel on one side is closer to the rear wheel than it is on the other side. These things can be caused by a bent frame, or the spring not centered in the cross member, or by the front axle being bent. If someone follows you, does it appear that you are running at an angle on the road? By that, I mean that the front of the car is diagonal to the rear of the car.
It would be good, if you can find a local club and maybe someone who lives near you who is experienced with Model T's to become your mentor. These cars are a lot of fun, and remember that a 26, which is one of the newest Model T's is 94 years old, so it had been through a lot in it's lifetime, and maybe it is time to do a body off chassis restoration. Even if you don't restore the body at this time, you can get all the running gear in good condition.
Norm
It would be good, if you can find a local club and maybe someone who lives near you who is experienced with Model T's to become your mentor. These cars are a lot of fun, and remember that a 26, which is one of the newest Model T's is 94 years old, so it had been through a lot in it's lifetime, and maybe it is time to do a body off chassis restoration. Even if you don't restore the body at this time, you can get all the running gear in good condition.
Norm
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Norm, this car was a frame off restoration about 10 years ago. The whole chassis is restored. The leaf springs are centered in the frame. The rear radius rods are straight. The distance from the torque tube ball to the backing plates is equal. The car tracks perfectly straight on level ground. I drive it often on a road that has several tight curves and is and that may have something to do with it too. I did strike a rather large pot hole with the right front wheel while trying to avoid a deer on the road. That very well may have bent something. I do not believe that the car has had this issue the whole time I've been driving it. I just noticed the excessive tire wear over the last few years.Norman Kling wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:52 pmAnother question. When you drive on a level road, does the car pull to one side? If it does, which way? It could be that the rear axle is offset from the front axle, or that wheel on one side is closer to the rear wheel than it is on the other side. These things can be caused by a bent frame, or the spring not centered in the cross member, or by the front axle being bent. If someone follows you, does it appear that you are running at an angle on the road? By that, I mean that the front of the car is diagonal to the rear of the car.
It would be good, if you can find a local club and maybe someone who lives near you who is experienced with Model T's to become your mentor. These cars are a lot of fun, and remember that a 26, which is one of the newest Model T's is 94 years old, so it had been through a lot in it's lifetime, and maybe it is time to do a body off chassis restoration. Even if you don't restore the body at this time, you can get all the running gear in good condition.
Norm
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Stephen,
Here's how you can compare/check spindle arms.
First, remove both spindle assemblies**. Then, insert the kingpin in each spindle assembly. On a nice, flat surface, lay the spindle assemblies on their sides, supporting each end of the kingpin with two blocks of equal thickness. This should cause the spindles to point upwards. Now, insert the tie rod bolt into each spindle arm. Similar to what you did with the kingpins, support the end of the tie rod bolts with blocks of equal thickness. Positioning the two spindle assemblies near each other to eyeball the relative alignment of the two spindles, note if each spindle points upwards at the same angle, or does one sit more vertical, or even lean back more then the other. They should be the same. Ideally, with the wheels pointed straight ahead, you should be able to draw a straight line from the each kingpin to the exact center of the rear axle. If the spindle arms are unbent, the centers of each of the tie rod bolts should pass through those lines.
**I state "spindle assembly" to describe the whole thing. In other words, the spindle & the spindle arm. When I state "spindle", I mean the actual stub that the bearings & wheel mounts to.
Here's how you can compare/check spindle arms.
First, remove both spindle assemblies**. Then, insert the kingpin in each spindle assembly. On a nice, flat surface, lay the spindle assemblies on their sides, supporting each end of the kingpin with two blocks of equal thickness. This should cause the spindles to point upwards. Now, insert the tie rod bolt into each spindle arm. Similar to what you did with the kingpins, support the end of the tie rod bolts with blocks of equal thickness. Positioning the two spindle assemblies near each other to eyeball the relative alignment of the two spindles, note if each spindle points upwards at the same angle, or does one sit more vertical, or even lean back more then the other. They should be the same. Ideally, with the wheels pointed straight ahead, you should be able to draw a straight line from the each kingpin to the exact center of the rear axle. If the spindle arms are unbent, the centers of each of the tie rod bolts should pass through those lines.
**I state "spindle assembly" to describe the whole thing. In other words, the spindle & the spindle arm. When I state "spindle", I mean the actual stub that the bearings & wheel mounts to.
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Topic author - Posts: 364
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Jerry, I'll set the spindles up on a set of parallels and see if the arms are bent.
Thank you,
Stephen
Thank you,
Stephen
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Stephen,
When I was growing up the car repair shops had front end alignment tools that consisted of a series of bubble levels that attached to the front wheels and a part that connected between the two. My moving the wheels right and left the mechanic could tell all about the alignment: caster, camber, and toe-in and if there was something bent. I looked online for a picture of these old tools but couldn't find one. The modern equivalent uses lasers and electronics.
One option would be to take your car to a tire shop or alignment shop that has the tools to measure everything. They would probably not be able to fix it but at least give you a report that you could use to make repairs or buy new parts. The only problem may be if they cannot attach their tools to your wheels.
Neil
When I was growing up the car repair shops had front end alignment tools that consisted of a series of bubble levels that attached to the front wheels and a part that connected between the two. My moving the wheels right and left the mechanic could tell all about the alignment: caster, camber, and toe-in and if there was something bent. I looked online for a picture of these old tools but couldn't find one. The modern equivalent uses lasers and electronics.
One option would be to take your car to a tire shop or alignment shop that has the tools to measure everything. They would probably not be able to fix it but at least give you a report that you could use to make repairs or buy new parts. The only problem may be if they cannot attach their tools to your wheels.
Neil
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
When I lived in St. Louis there was quite a few restoration shops in the area I would think one or more of those should have the bubble system for your car if not find an alignment shop that has the brand new system where the laser heads hang off the tire not the rim. You’ll have to give them the specifications they should be able to put that in their computer system and check the alignment
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
Are your fellows properly matched to the rims? Not mixing Hays with Kelsey for example.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Re: Why do I keep wearing tires out?
One very quick way to check out the entire alignment of the frame and axles would be to measure from center of the front spindle bolt at the bottom of the axle to a point on the opposite rear side. Such a place as the bolt where the rear radius rod bolts to the rear backing plate. Then measure in the exact same manor the opposite side. The distances should be the same if everything is in alignment.
A way to measure the alignment of the front axle whether it is bent would be to remove everything from the axle and then put a rod in each hole where the front spindle arm is bolted, the spring perches. There are 4 holes so put a straight rod in each hole. They should all be in alignment with each other. If not, the axle is bent and needs to be straightened.
Norm
A way to measure the alignment of the front axle whether it is bent would be to remove everything from the axle and then put a rod in each hole where the front spindle arm is bolted, the spring perches. There are 4 holes so put a straight rod in each hole. They should all be in alignment with each other. If not, the axle is bent and needs to be straightened.
Norm