Hot No Start

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paddy1998
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Hot No Start

Post by paddy1998 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:45 pm

I got my 23ish Touring all put back together after putting in new valves and installing the Texas T distributor (which is fabulous if you're in the market for a distributor) and took her for a shakedown run to the butcher shop about 8 blocks from my house.

It starts right up when cold and runs very smooth, but I found out the hard way when I came out of the store about 10 minutes later that it did not want to start, not even a little bit. After waiting about 20 minutes or so it started right up again.

It just so happens that another Model T owner came along and suggested that I may need to increase my valve clearance. I had them set to .012, so I opened them up to .016.

That didn't help. It still starts great cold, but if I shut it down after reaching operating temperature it doesn't want to start until it cools down some, about 20 minutes to half an hour.

Thoughts?


got10carz
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by got10carz » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:01 pm

Check for spark when it won't start. Perhaps the coil or condenser is getting hot.

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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Tim Rogers » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:18 pm

Valve clearance? Hmmmm...
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Rich Bingham » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:42 pm

Scott, what’s your cold start procedure ? Do you “lean up” the mixture after she’s warmed up ? Do you choke at all when starting warm ? Which carb are you running ? I presume you’re on electric starter as opposed to hand cranking.

Sounds to me as if she could be flooded after warm up, perhaps mixture is overall too rich.

In summer weather, if I’m too generous with the choke my ‘13 Lizzie will be balky to start. Any choke at all when hot and she’s flooded. Hope this helps.
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Kerry » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:44 pm

Are you trying with the choke as well ? it's not uncommon for a T to vapor lock on a hot engine.


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by John kuehn » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:03 pm

Is your gas caps vent hole stopped up?
The next time your car gets hot after a drive and you park it remove the gas cap a bit and then try to start it. If it starts right up your car is vapor locking. Most any old car or tractor that has a gravity feed gas flow will do that if it gets hot with a non vented or barely vented gas cap. Won’t hurt to try it.

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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Oldav8tor » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:42 pm

Does it even try to start when hot or simply turn over with no firing at all?
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:44 pm

How is your float level? It is possible that the hot gas is percolating in the float bowl and flooding the carburetor. Try opening the gas all the way and hitting the starter, or if hand cranked, with the key OFF rotate the crank around and around as fast as you can for a few turns. Then turn on the key and try to start, but do NOT use the choke.
If you can't turn over the engine with either the crank or the starter, then something in the engine is too tight and expanding. Quite likely the pistons, especially if they are aluminum. After it cools down a while it contracts and you can start again.

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Re: Hot No Start

Post by paddy1998 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:38 pm

Oldav8tor wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:42 pm
Does it even try to start when hot or simply turn over with no firing at all?
No firing at all.
Rich Bingham wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:42 pm
Scott, what’s your cold start procedure ? Do you “lean up” the mixture after she’s warmed up ? Do you choke at all when starting warm ? Which carb are you running ? I presume you’re on electric starter as opposed to hand cranking.

Sounds to me as if she could be flooded after warm up, perhaps mixture is overall too rich.

In summer weather, if I’m too generous with the choke my ‘13 Lizzie will be balky to start. Any choke at all when hot and she’s flooded. Hope this helps.
Electric cold start I give it full choke and it starts on the second or third revolution. Hand crank cold start key off three quarter cranks with choke, key on it starts on the second or third crank, sometimes first (I'm hand cranking more often since I pulled the engine and cleaned up the clutch pack. It just cranks so easy now!).

It's a Simmons Super Power carb, which I understand is almost a clone of the NH. I've been fooling with the carb since I got the engine back in the car. I'd love to know a starting point for adjusting the carb. Could very well be too rich.


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by JRSpada4 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:44 am

My first thought would be maybe you’re experiencing vapor lock when hot. What’s your fuel line routing look like? Does it pass over or under the exhaust? Are there any points between the shutoff and the carb that are higher than the carb inlet? Although I don’t have a lot of experience with them, my Simmons Super Power carb is really finicky with the choke. With mine on a cold start, anything more than a sideways glance at the choke, and the engine floods. If you think you’ve flooded it, open the throttle all the way and crank it to blow out some of the excess fuel.


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Rich Bingham » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:11 am

Good thoughts Jim, re/ vapor lock and routing the fuel line. Eight blocks doesn’t seem like a long enough run to get things “super-heated” but it would depend on the weather. To clear a “flood”, turn the mixture adjusting needle all the way off when dry cranking.

I have no experience with the Simmons carb, but in general, an initial setting for the mixture needle would be open one full turn and a half on most carbs.

Good luck, Scott ! Please let us know how you “cure” this problem. Good for you, hand-cranking with an easy turning motor ! Stem-winding is one of the little pleasures of Model T ownership!
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:52 am

I don't think it is a vapor lock. A vapor lock occurs in the fuel line, not the carburetor. With a typical vapor lock, the engine will start and then when the fuel in the carburetor runs out it will quit because the vapor lock in the fuel line will not allow the fuel to flow to the carburetor.
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Rich Bingham » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:10 pm

Modern fuels are more volatile than before and thus more apt to “boil” and cause vapor lock. I’ve never experienced vapor lock in a T. Cars with diaphragm fuel pumps can be very susceptible because negative pressure exacerbates the problem. As Norman says, vapor lock occurs in the fuel line. Vapor lock is often misunderstood and mis-diagnosed.
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Walter Higgins » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:15 pm

got10carz wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:01 pm
Check for spark when it won't start. Perhaps the coil or condenser is getting hot.
This is spot on and most likely right since you have gone the distributor route. A failing coil will mimic vapor lock (which shouldn't really be an issue here). When it gets hot output will be poor and when it cools off it will come back to life. Easy enough to swap out with another one and see if the variable changes.


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Bill Dizer » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:10 pm

Is there a ballast resistor built in the coil, or installed in the coil power wiring? If not, you may need one to prevent the coil from overheating. It will also cause excessive points burning. This is true for both 6& 12 volts. At the same time, with the engine hot, the starter may be drawing enough current, to keep the coil from getting enough current to fire the plugs. Check the plugs for good spark while cranking the engine, hot when it's acting up.


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:05 am

This is a true story about a 6 volt ignition coil! Not a T but same principle as a T with distributor. I had a 1937 De Soto and it would start up and run a block or two and then quit. After it sat for a while it would start up and run a few blocks again. I also had a 1938 Plymouth at the time which used the same coil. I had the junk man come and haul away the De Soto but kept parts which would fit the Plymouth. One day when I was working on the Plymouth I broke off the stud where the small wire to the distributor is connected, so I installed the coil from the De Soto. It started up and ran a block or two and quit! I had junked the whole car because of a bad coil and didn't find out the cause until the De Soto was gone! This happened during the 1950's.
Norm


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by D Stroud » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:20 am

A bad condenser in a distributor ignition can make you pull your hair out, they can mimic all kinds of problems. I have been around four different vehicles over the last fifty plus years that had bad condensers and every one acted different. Two of them had new condensers that were bad, the original ones were fine. Same with coils, just because they may be new, doesn't mean they're good. Sometimes it's a crap shoot. Dave
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by paddy1998 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:14 am

D Stroud wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:20 am
A bad condenser in a distributor ignition can make you pull your hair out, they can mimic all kinds of problems. I have been around four different vehicles over the last fifty plus years that had bad condensers and every one acted different. Two of them had new condensers that were bad, the original ones were fine. Same with coils, just because they may be new, doesn't mean they're good. Sometimes it's a crap shoot. Dave
Yes, I've got a brand new coil and electronic ignition but I'm not ruling anything out. Except maybe vapor lock; it never did that before and if anything the whole system is running cooler now than ever before.

Work has gotten in the way this week, but later on today I'm going to drive it a few miles to replicate the problem. Then I'm going to try turning the needle all the way down and cranking it a bunch of times with the key off.

I'll bring the Fluke along and check the coil too while I'm at it. I'll try to post something tonight.


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by troutjohn » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:44 am

My 1912 Torpedo and 1913 Touring with standard coils and NH carburetors do this as well in the summer. There are some earlier threads discussing this for early cars. I have had luck with advancing the throttle as I turn off the car and pulling gas into the cylinders.

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paddy1998
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by paddy1998 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:08 pm

Well I took her about 3 miles to the gas station to fill-er-up, after which she started on the first crank. Then I went a few more miles and made another stop, after which she wouldn't start, so I turned the needle down all the way and cranked it three times with the key off. Then I turned the needle one full turn open, throttle halfway, two cranks with choke (key off), one crank and started with the key on.

Then I drove a few more miles (and opened the needle another half turn) and made another stop. This time it wouldn't start with the starter, but started on the first pull of the crank by hand with no other adjustments.

I think this is going to take awhile to figure out.

I can't really be driving around all the time with tools all over the seats, so is anybody selling a running board mounted tool box? :lol:

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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Duey_C » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:43 pm

Funny on the running board toolbox! Uh huh, some days we need tools at hand!
Silly thought perhaps: Is the point gap just a hair too close?
Grampa's truck (not a T but a '58 Chevrolet six) was the same and fooled with us all until I opened the points just a tiny bit.
Then, no problem with warm starts.
Perhaps?
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paddy1998
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by paddy1998 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:52 pm

Duey_C wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:43 pm
Funny on the running board toolbox! Uh huh, some days we need tools at hand!
Silly thought perhaps: Is the point gap just a hair too close?
Grampa's truck (not a T but a '58 Chevrolet six) was the same and fooled with us all until I opened the points just a tiny bit.
Then, no problem with warm starts.
Perhaps?
Electronic ignition.

I think I just need to get the carburetor dialed in.

I'm going to play with it some more.

On an unrelated note, I washed it today (end of the day) and when I started it up to put it back in the garage i noticed some water had pooled in the recess for #'s 2 and 3 spark plugs. As I cranked the engine over there were bubbles coming up by #2 spark plug.

It's always something, and frankly that's why I like this car. Plenty of wrenches to turn :mrgreen:

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paddy1998
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by paddy1998 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:46 pm

Well, I think I've got my problem narrowed down but I'm not sure what to do about it, of anything.

After adjusting the carb to my satisfaction I've made several runs and stops and in each instance the result was the same.

As you may recall I have the Texas T distributor and their 6v coil. The first start of the day (sometimes) the starter will start the car. After that, it won't. It acts almost like it's not firing. In each instance, after trying with the starter, the car will fire right over with one or two (usually one) hand cranks.

Apparently there is not enough juice to crank the starter and fire the coil at the same time.

Bad battery? Starter? Coil?

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Re: Hot No Start

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:12 pm

Did you add on an additional ground wire from the distributor body to the timing cover ?


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Re: Hot No Start

Post by Bill Dizer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:34 pm

A hot engine has the compression up just a bit, and the starter draws more to crank it. In the old days of points, many ran a coil with a separate ballast resistor, and then ran a hot wire from the start side of the starter solenoid to the coil positive side, so that it got full voltage for starting, but when the starter disengaged, the coil voltage dropped so it wouldn't burn the points.

To do that on a model t, you would need to run a wire from the starter side of the starter switch, through a diode to the coil. The diode prevents power from the coil from engaging the starter. You need the diode to let power from the switch when the starter is activated, to the coil, but not back to the starter switch when the starter is not being used, and the engine is running.

It might be useful to check the wire connection at the battery, both positive and negative, the ground to the frame connection, the starter switch wires on both studs, and at the starter itself. One way is to feel them carefully after you have cranked it for a bit. A bad connection will get hot fast! Be careful!

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paddy1998
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Re: Hot No Start

Post by paddy1998 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:09 pm

RajoRacer wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:12 pm
Did you add on an additional ground wire from the distributor body to the timing cover ?
I did not add an additional ground wire other than the one already on the distributor body.

Do you think that could be it? There's no miss when the engine is running, and in those instances where it won't start with the starter it starts easily with the crank. Ground doesn't seem to be an issue.

Or is it?

I really despise automotive electrical; it just doesn't behave rationally, or at least it doesn't seem to.

I'll attach another ground tomorrow. :roll:

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