Engine Number vs Serial Number
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Topic author - Posts: 3284
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
- Last Name: Smith
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
- Location: Lomita, California
- MTFCA Number: 121
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- MTFCI Number: 16310
Engine Number vs Serial Number
I have a '14 with a serial number plate above the steering column that I don't believe belongs on this car, although it is original. On the 1913's I have the engine number is always the higher number, usually by over 1000. One is 16,898 and the other is 14,197.
The 14 I'm referring to the serial number is greater @70,759! I don't see how that could have happened in less than one year!
Comments? I'm only interested in data known to authentic, and no home made serial numbers.
The 14 I'm referring to the serial number is greater @70,759! I don't see how that could have happened in less than one year!
Comments? I'm only interested in data known to authentic, and no home made serial numbers.
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- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
- First Name: Susanne
- Last Name: Rohner
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '15 touring, "Angel".
- Location: Valfabbrica, (central) Italy
- MTFCA Number: 464
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
- Contact:
Re: Engine Number vs Serial Number
That serial number - 14000 or 16000 - would make your car an early 1910, which is superduper cool beans... but not a '13. My dad's early '12 (march-ish) was 101xxx... 707xx would be October '11 (which would also be considered an early '12)...
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- Posts: 223
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Jeff
- Last Name: Perkins
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Runabout 1926 Touring
- Location: Lakeland MN
- MTFCA Number: 10642
- MTFCI Number: 17799
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Engine Number vs Serial Number
Here is some data on three 1914 Tourings I have owned over the years....if these make any sense.....
#1 - motor# 421895, casting date 1-17-14, body plate# 433216, seat riser stamped 4-14-88029 (Beaudette body)
#2 - motor# 440077, casting date 12-1-13, body plate# 399855, seat riser stamped 1-14-68384. (Beaudette body)
#3 - motor# 477750, casting date 12-22-13, body plate# 494920, seat riser stamped W 5 1 181513 (Wilson body)
#1 - motor# 421895, casting date 1-17-14, body plate# 433216, seat riser stamped 4-14-88029 (Beaudette body)
#2 - motor# 440077, casting date 12-1-13, body plate# 399855, seat riser stamped 1-14-68384. (Beaudette body)
#3 - motor# 477750, casting date 12-22-13, body plate# 494920, seat riser stamped W 5 1 181513 (Wilson body)
1913 Model T Runabout,
1926 Model T Touring,
1948 Chrysler New Yorker,
1991 Mazda Miata
1926 Model T Touring,
1948 Chrysler New Yorker,
1991 Mazda Miata
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- Posts: 365
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:58 pm
- First Name: Hap
- Last Name: Tucker
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 cut off touring; 1918 touring; 1922 Speedster
- Location: Sumter, SC
- MTFCA Number: 100
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
Re: Engine Number vs Serial Number
Larry,
From memory, (not as good as it used to be) I believe that Royce used to say the Dash ID number was higher than the engine number once the numbers started diverging in the US production. And I've been trying to find evidence that would support that or correct that statement.
Original cars could help with that documentation. But so would the original Ford bill of sales as back then the engine number and car number (the ID plate number) were often both on that bill of sale.
Note this applies to USA produced cars. For Canada production the engine number and the number on the ID patent plated continued to be the same number into the 1920s. (Not sure how they handled the "B" numbered engines in Canada?)
Does anyone have a copy of a Bill of Sale for a USA T that has the engine number, car number (dash plate number) and date sold (at least the month and year)?
Jeff -- thank you for those data points. They support what I think did occur, but I hope we can find some additional data points for other years also.
If I can find some information on my older computer I will share that also.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
From memory, (not as good as it used to be) I believe that Royce used to say the Dash ID number was higher than the engine number once the numbers started diverging in the US production. And I've been trying to find evidence that would support that or correct that statement.
Original cars could help with that documentation. But so would the original Ford bill of sales as back then the engine number and car number (the ID plate number) were often both on that bill of sale.
Note this applies to USA produced cars. For Canada production the engine number and the number on the ID patent plated continued to be the same number into the 1920s. (Not sure how they handled the "B" numbered engines in Canada?)
Does anyone have a copy of a Bill of Sale for a USA T that has the engine number, car number (dash plate number) and date sold (at least the month and year)?
Jeff -- thank you for those data points. They support what I think did occur, but I hope we can find some additional data points for other years also.
If I can find some information on my older computer I will share that also.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
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- Posts: 1459
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:35 pm
- First Name: Darel
- Last Name: Leipold
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 touring
- Location: Excelsior MN
- MTFCA Number: 823
- MTFCI Number: 953
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Engine Number vs Serial Number
The B series Model Ts were produced in late 1912 and were 1913 models. They were made in the old plant (Highland). They received the same dash plate that were numbered with consecative (sp) numbers along with the regular production. That threw off the dash number from the engine numbers.. About 12,000 B Ts were made.
Darel
Darel
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- Posts: 35
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:31 pm
- First Name: Peter
- Last Name: Ratledge
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 T touring
- Location: Delaware
- MTFCA Number: 6356
- MTFCI Number: 3534
Re: Engine Number vs Serial Number
Hi Larry,
I had the same question about my 1911 Touring. The Motor number is different than the number on my dash.
Royce Peterson sent me a copy of the original invoice for my car. He found the invoice at Benson Ford Archives.The dash # is 85087 and the motor # is
84473. The car has a Beaudette body. I can't make out the body number under the door. The car was delivered to FH Rhoads of Easterville Iowa on November 13,1911. He paid $586.50 for the car.
I am not sure when the different engine and dash numbers began and stopped. I feel that it was only a few years.
I hope this helps,
Pete Ratledge
I had the same question about my 1911 Touring. The Motor number is different than the number on my dash.
Royce Peterson sent me a copy of the original invoice for my car. He found the invoice at Benson Ford Archives.The dash # is 85087 and the motor # is
84473. The car has a Beaudette body. I can't make out the body number under the door. The car was delivered to FH Rhoads of Easterville Iowa on November 13,1911. He paid $586.50 for the car.
I am not sure when the different engine and dash numbers began and stopped. I feel that it was only a few years.
I hope this helps,
Pete Ratledge
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- Posts: 4072
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
- First Name: Norman
- Last Name: Kling
- Location: Alpine California
Re: Engine Number vs Serial Number
the most complete listing of engine numbers by year is in the Book by Bruce McCalley. Unless you have an invoice, or original registration for the car or know who the original owner was and if he took notes as to what repairs he made, it would be impossible to be sure whether the engine or even the frame or body came from the car as it was produced from the factory. Many engines have been swapped over the years and some have even had the numbers ground off and different numbers stamped on. Many years later after the end of Model T production engines were sold without any serial number stamped on it. In fact I have one such engine.
Norm
Norm
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- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
- First Name: Susanne
- Last Name: Rohner
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '15 touring, "Angel".
- Location: Valfabbrica, (central) Italy
- MTFCA Number: 464
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
- Contact:
Re: Engine Number vs Serial Number
You can confirm your engine number with the casting date on the motor... also depending on your body (Beaudette or Ford, maybe Fisher) the body number will incorporate the month and year of the body.
My question is this - I always assumed my body was a Ford, as it starts with 3F815xxxxx,Easy enough as it dates my body to August 15 (Happy 105th B'day, Angel!!) but someone, somewhere, told me that both Ford and Fisher used that notation, and the "3" was what designated the factory or manufacturer or plant or etc...
I them remembered that Fisher had several plants in the early teens, each had a number - so I tried to find if there was a Fisher body plant #3 - Sure enough,I could find out about a lot of Fisher plants... but no mention of a plant #3. I couldn't find anything about it. So maybe NOT a Fisher body...
Someone also told me that the "3" was a branch designator. As my car was (allegedly) a PPE car, maybe the "3" designated that? Someone else said maybe it was the 3rd shift....
The more I learn, the more confused I get! Anyone have any light brighter than kerosene through purple lenses on this?? I had a lot of assumptions based on what I was told, but I really would like to know the truth about the car... once and for all.
My question is this - I always assumed my body was a Ford, as it starts with 3F815xxxxx,Easy enough as it dates my body to August 15 (Happy 105th B'day, Angel!!) but someone, somewhere, told me that both Ford and Fisher used that notation, and the "3" was what designated the factory or manufacturer or plant or etc...
I them remembered that Fisher had several plants in the early teens, each had a number - so I tried to find if there was a Fisher body plant #3 - Sure enough,I could find out about a lot of Fisher plants... but no mention of a plant #3. I couldn't find anything about it. So maybe NOT a Fisher body...
Someone also told me that the "3" was a branch designator. As my car was (allegedly) a PPE car, maybe the "3" designated that? Someone else said maybe it was the 3rd shift....
The more I learn, the more confused I get! Anyone have any light brighter than kerosene through purple lenses on this?? I had a lot of assumptions based on what I was told, but I really would like to know the truth about the car... once and for all.