Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

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nsbrassnut
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First Name: Jeff
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Location: Nova Scotia

Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by nsbrassnut » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:29 pm

Hi All

I recently picked up a mixed bag of parts that included what is supposed to be a late 13 frame. The mounting of the rear cross member is odd compared to what I am used to. The back end of the side rails have a rough cut opening for the cross member to slide in and be attached. The area where the top of the side rails overlaps the cross member is a bit different too. There is also a different brace bracket on the underside of the cross member to side rail. The side rails look like they were the earlier style, but had cut-outs made at the back end to fit the wider cross member.

The frame also appears to have the holes for the factor late ’13 extra mounting bracket to support the body sill. The ’13 style extra brackets were in one of the boxes too.

The cross member is currently held in by a mixture of old looking rivets and round head carriage bolts.

Has anyone seen anything like this for the transition period where they changed the frame rear cross member design?

Thanks

Jeff
Nova Scotia
Attachments
Underside.jpg
Back.jpg
Front.jpg


Model T Mark
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by Model T Mark » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:24 pm

On a US car a late 13 frame doesn’t have that little step up on the cross member where the hole is for the body bracket. They are completely smooth. In the US that is the standard issue 14 style frame. It has been my experience that Canada used some parts that we didn’t get in the US till just a little bit later. This is just my experience real results may vary.


DickC
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by DickC » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:38 pm

Jeff, your photos don't show it but do you have the steering column? I believe the 1913 column flange that attaches to the firewall is the only year the bolts have one of the four "offset" in the bolt pattern. I don't know if that was early or late 1913.


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:04 pm

Looks like that rear cross member has been changed. And not done very well. Can't really tell what year the frame is from those pictures. The big determining factor to frame year is what and where all the various mounting bolt holes are. Firewall brackets were changed between '15 and '17, and those changes resulted in the holes being moved. Fenders changed for 1917, requiring hole changes. Running board brackets changed around 1920, for that, Ford punched holes for both styles for almost three years! The battery box was added for 1919. The list goes on. The thickness of the steel increased a few times between 1913 and 1925 (and again for 1926 which frame has many obvious changes!). Other than that, with only minor modifications (filling and drilling holes!), almost any frame can be used for almost any year. Many of us do prefer some effort be made to use a frame at least close to the correct year.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:38 pm

Screen shot 2019-06-30 at 8.17.41 PM.jpg
Screen shot 2019-06-30 at 8.18.23 PM.jpg
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Topic author
nsbrassnut
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by nsbrassnut » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:30 pm

Hi All

Took the old bolts out and took the rear cross member out for more inspection. I'm pretty sure now that this is a '13 frame, that had a later rear cross member crudely installed some time ago.

It does have the forged running board brackets and the top mounted two bolt mounting firewall brackets.

There were the earlier style re-enforcing brackets on the inside, although they were on the wrong sides and flipped over to fit the later cross member. Also the main frame rails were measured and found to be 1 inch longer than the later frame rail. This measurement is the length of the side rail, the later ones are shorter and go only part way over the rear cross member while the earlier one goes all the way over. There are also more holes over the cross member on the earlier rail to hold both a rivet and the two bolts for the body mount.

It also came with the additional bolt on body sill support brackets that bolt on near the back end of the frame rails.

Now to work out how to repair it.

By the way, for the Canadian frames there are some additional dating tips. The frame is punched for only RHD or LHD to the end of 1916. Starting in 1917 they are punched for both RHD and LHD steering box mounting. This frame had only RHD steering mounting holes.

The base of the steering column is the cast version with the offset mounting holes also. But drilled for RHD mounting and complete with an extra mounting hole that someone drilled in it.

Drive Safe
Jeff
Nova Scotia
Attachments
13 column base.jpg
Extra brackets.jpg
End bracket.jpg


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:09 pm

Ouch! Too bad they cut the sides out to fit in the later cross member. It can be welded back in and made to look good. However, welding frames requires careful consideration and welding quality beyond that of most "hobby" welders. The frame needs to flex when driven on any sort of uneven surface, and welds always leave hard and soft areas in the finished work that can result in cracks. With the top and bottom still intact, adding in the few inches of sidewall shouldn't be very serious.
I have seen a lot of cut '13 and earlier frames over the years, and even some that have been welded back together. But I can't recall ever seeing one cut that way!

Looks like a good start to a nice '13 Canadian!


Allan
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by Allan » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:38 pm

Jeff, those bolt on extra body brackets have no use on other than a 1913 frame, so that should pinpoint it for you. The ones I found were attached with other than standard Ford hardware. The theory put forward at the time was that these were dealer fitted, and so were attached with whatever they had to hand.
I am interested in your forged running board brackets. I believe in 1913 there were changes made in the way they were forged. Can you post close-up photos of the frame ends, from the side and underneath? The later brackets are a little lighter in construction, but the noticeable difference is in the way the dies were used in their forging, they were stamped from the side, so the flashing from the forging runs along the top and the underside of the bracket, and this results in a cross section that is symmetrical from top to bottom. The frame end of the earlier brackets was forged with dies struck from above rather than the side, leaving flashings on the side of the brackets. This end of the bracket is more pear shaped in cross section.

Also, the underside of the mating face of the brackets where they mount to the chassis varies. On the early brackets the lower edge is concave between the two lower rivets, whereas the later brackets are convex at this point.

Allan from down under.


Topic author
nsbrassnut
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Last Name: Lee
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by nsbrassnut » Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:39 pm

Hi Allan

Here are a couple pictures of one of the running board brackets. Its still got a lot of dirt and paint, but you may be able to see what you are looking for.

It looks to me like the end was stamped "face on". I think you can see part of the stamping seam.

Jeff
Nova Scotia
Attachments
20200830_113228.jpg
20200830_113214.jpg
20200830_113156.jpg


Allan
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Re: Question, it this a late 1913 frame?

Post by Allan » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:12 am

Jeff, those are the earlier stampings. The forge flash is clearly seen on the sides at the frame end. On the later irons that flash runs top and bottom on the irons. Thanks for the photos.

Allan from down under.

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