Truefire timing issue?

[Corvette Guy]

So I was working on the TT today and I wanted to check the timing. I followed the directions and found that when the #1 piston was at 15 degrees past TDC and the timer was all the way counter clockwise the TF coil would buzz. The clip for the adjustment rod was at 12 o-clock and I think it needed to be at 11 or so but it won't turn that far. Is the timer supposed to spin all the way around or just go a quarter of a turn?

The truck runs good but it's sometimes hard to start. In fact, I can do 22 or 23 mph at about half throttle (but then I run out of fuel in the carb, but that is a different thread).

Anyhow here's a video of my problem.
https://imgur.com/a/pe9CHk3

Thoughts?

[Scott_Conger]

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1423931331

[Corvette Guy]

Scott,

I did all of that. I seems that my timer won't rotate far enough counter clockwise to give me enough retard, this is with the rod disconnected. Is there some sort of stop on the timer that keeps it from rotating that far?

[Scott_Conger]

I should have been more clear as to what to look for: note how far ccw the timer housing is. It just lifts off when the bolt is loosened and the tension "finger" is released. I cannot fathom why it will not rotate fully for you but you may come to a better understanding soon.

[CudaMan]

I see that you mentioned that you can't rotate the timer far enough CCW even with the rod disconnected. I am not aware of any kind of "stop" in the unit that would prevent you from rotating it a full 360 degrees or more if you wanted. Is one of your timer wires going tight and limiting the rotation of your timer?

Once you get the timer rotation sorted out, If your timer rod is too short to put the timer where it needs to be with the lever fully up, make a longer timer rod. Be sure to check that the rod doesn't hit any metal parts over its full range of travel, or it will short out the timer and your ignition will be intermittent.

[Roz]

Is one of the timer posts hitting the pan bolt directly beneath the timer?

[Corvette Guy]

Is one of the timer posts hitting the pan bolt directly beneath the timer?

Bingo....

After some offline tech support from Scott Conger, I found that the timer should spin all the way around. I took it back off and low and behold an oil pan bolt was in upside down which was hitting a timer post and preventing me from getting enough rotation / retard.

So I got that all fixed up and now my rod was too short. I pulled it off and went to my neighbor guy's house, who just bought at TT (I'm a bad influence) and I used his as a pattern and got everything fixed up and I now have retard. My timer rod went under the water hose and my neighbor's went over the top, which game me a lot more adjustment.

I'll have to drive it this weekend before I officially declare victory.

[CudaMan]

Glad you found the problem. I never considered routing the rod over the top of the lower radiator hose, I just kept the stock routing and made a longer rod.

[Piewagon]

If you now decide to route the timer rod above the water tube you will be putting part of your problem back in. Look at the small lever that is pinned to the driver operated timing advance lever. To get the correct amount of timing advance you need to pass the timer rod under the water tube but NOT under the water hose. What I mean is that typically people don't know that the lower water hose should be about 3/4" shorter than the upper water hose. When installing the hoses there is a very large amount of adjustment range for water tube so people just try to center it and don't notice that if you have the lower hose not pushed all the way onto the radiator connection then the timer rod will hit the lower water hose clamp when you rotate the driver end of the timing control. They usually then bend the timing rod to try and get it to stop and that is "big mistake number 1" toward getting the timing setup wrong. If you look really carefully at actual stock setup in the T1 manual you might notice that the timer rod passes UNDER the steel tube and the lower hose and clamp is well forward of the upper end of the lower hose. A new timer rod is almost exactly correct as supplied but you should put it on first and set the timing before putting on the water hose to make sure you have clearance at the outer end of the lower hose so that the timer rod does not hit any part of the lower hose or its clamp. Usually outside oilers are installed before the timer rod and then they interfere with the timer rod too so again a mistake is to bend the timer rod to clear the oiler hose. That is "big mistake number 2". You should bend the oiler tube to clear the timer rod. I have made my own timer rods exactly to Ford drawings and they fit and clear everything and you only bend them in the "upper arc" portion above the timer itself to lengthen (pull the upper arc apart wider) or shorten (squeeze the upper arc together). The problem stems from the fact that most people put the timer rod in place as the last thing to go on the restored engine compartment when it should be the first. If you bend the rod anyplace other than the arc above the timer connection you will be off and running in the wrong direction. Start with a new rod and set the timing and then get the hose and clamp next and finally the oil tube if you are using one. I route my oiler tube on the other side of the motor behind the carb and then forward to the cam gear so that it supplies oil to the front cam gear and works it way back through the motor from there.

[CudaMan]

Good info, John! I had to trim my lower radiator hose to give clearance for the timer rod to pass under without hitting the hose.

With my Truefire, I found that if I flattened out the upper rounded end to get enough length, that part of the rod would touch one of the upper timer terminals during part of its travel. That is why I fabricated my own custom rod that is longer, but passes well clear of the upper timer terminals over the full range of travel.

[Corvette Guy]

Crap, looks like a might have screwed up by straightening my rod out.

Cuda, what did you make your rod out of?

[CudaMan]

I measured the diameter of the stock rod and bought a length of the same diameter music wire at a "real" hardware store that has since closed (the kind that has everything, but only the long time employees know where everything is). You'll probably have to order it online, the cookie cutter chain hardware stores likely won't carry it.

[Corvette Guy]

With a stock rod (under the water hose) and timer, how many degrees of rotation should you have?

[CudaMan]

I don't know how many degrees of timer rotation Ford originally designed into the system, it would be interesting to know. 1960's V8s could run up to 50 degrees of total (initial + mechanical + vacuum) during light cruise on the highway.

If full up on the lever is 15 degrees retarded, and you want to cruise around at say, 30 degrees advance, then you would need at least 45 (30 + 15) degrees of travel. If you want to cruise with more advance, add the additional advance to the 45 number.

By the way, the advance numbers above are in crankshaft degrees. Because the camshaft rotates at half the speed of the crankshaft, the amount of rotation of the timer is only half as much as the crank.

The length of the rod has minimal effect on the amount of advance travel, but it does affect how far over the timer is rotated at full retard. For some reason, the Truefire requires the timer to be rotated further towards the passenger side at 15 degrees of ignition retard than most mechanical timers.

[Scott_Conger]

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/ignition2.pdf

[J1MGOLDEN]

The usual problem is the steering to timer rod needs to be lengthened some to have the timing correct.

When the timing happens too late, the waste spark cylinder has just started down to draw in some fuel.

The waste spark ignites that fuel and causes a backfire through the carburetor, which sometimes causes an engine fire.

That happens more often, if the air intake is not properly installed or is loose enough to be blown back some.

The repro spark rods seem to be bent to the original specification sheet sizes.

I have two that I often use for comparison with the ones on Ts with problems using TrueFire ignition systems.

Sometimes the rods are too long, but usually they are too short.

[Corvette Guy]

I've triple checked the timing and I'm spot on. Thumb over the #1 plug hole till compression, turn the engine over until the crank pin is parallel to the ground. Go a smidgen more to get the pin at 3 and a half on the clock. Set the timer until it doesn't buzz the coil / Truefire.

Anyhow, I got the TT started and ran it up and down the road for a bit and it ran fine. I tried to keep my speed around 18mph but it would do 22mph without much problem, do I would say it was running good. I did notice a huge difference between retarded running and advanced running, that I didn't notice before I reset the timing.

I was going to take the kid to soccer practice in it but I wanted to make sure it would start if I turned it off. I turned it off and couldn't get it started for the life of me.

I've got 9 volts to the Turefire which will run between 6 and 12 volts. I've got gas to the carb and I even tired some starting fluid and it didn't help. I checked and 1 and 4 are firing at the same time as are 2 and 3.

I was thinking of advancing the timing, the way it was before and seeing if it would start easier but I didn't want to risk a kickback. I also had some backfiring though the carb, which Golden said could be caused by the extra spark (good call, I didn't think of that).

Thoughts?

[J1MGOLDEN]

with the ignition key in Bat, measure the voltage on the red and black wires going to the TrueFire Timer.

If it is not at least 11.5 volts, you may not be getting any sparks to the spark plugs as a 12 volt Ford coil is the heart of the system.

[CudaMan]

By 12V Ford coil, Jim means a "modern" style coil that is inside the Truefire box.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1385090181

[Corvette Guy]

Well, I got it started and running. It doesn't like to start with full retard but it will run that way. I know it's probably wrong but it starts much easier with some timing advance, probably unsafe too. I think what my problem was that one the low voltage wires on the timer was shorting out against something on the engine. I couldn't figure out what or where, but fake buzzing sound would change when I moved the wiring harness. I taped up the wires and it it seems to help.

I also replaced the batteries. I run my car on two 6 volt square lantern batteries. Mine were at 9 volts vs 12 so I replaced them and got a much better spark. Once started it ran great, but getting it restarted after I shut it down was a chore. Maybe I'm still trying to learn the car?

[CudaMan]

Do you always prime the carb with the ignition off, even when warm? If so, it may be flooded. If the engine is warm, there's no need to prime.

[Alan Long]

My Truefire performed very well for several years however a 39 Degree c day caused it to miss fire and not believing
it was the issue changed several items until it was clear it was the Truefire. Maybe they have issues with elevated heat
we experience in Australia
Alan in Western Australia

[Corvette Guy]

After all the starting problems one of my friends said, "It ran fine before you started fixing it? Put it back to the way it was." I'm thinking he has a point.

Then, I started thinking that maybe I had low compression so I checked it and I had 40-45-45-45 dry and 45-47-47-47 with a couple of squirts of oil in the cylinder. I'm thinking that is ok so I moved the timing lever down a smidge (maybe 1/4) and it started up with very little cranking. I ran it up and down the road a couple of times (timing lever mostly down) and came back and parked it. I turned off the truck left the timing at about 1/4 and the carb adjustment at about 1/2 a turn (it's where it runs best). I waited a minute or two and then it fired up on the first crank (no carb adjustment or choke). I then waited about another 15 minutes and it started on the 4th crank, again with no carb adjustment.

This is WAY better than the weekend when I cranked it hundreds of times (with retarded timing) and it wouldn't start. I'm thinking the timing was simply too far retarded. I'm not declaring a victory till I can duplicate it a few more times.