MTFCA Forum

I have been told same thing on ALL tractors, but only %3. Still a cross the board price increase of all brands. Dan

I was told by Coker this morning that all tires were going up March 1, 10- 20 % That's a huge increase.

I have a friend in the AC business, if you need a household AC or heat pump they are going up too. Dan

How come? Tariffs, shortages,what?

Rubber from China! is what I was told. Tariffs, Maybe they will get something worked out soon. I still ordered my set today to be picked up at Chickasha.

new ownership on Coker.

Guess what everthing is going up

When the tariffs take full effect the prices on everything will drop. In the meantime maybe the government could give Model T owners some type of subsidy/welfare like they do the soybean farmers.

I was told that last December, so I have tires for my 1911 ordered at 2018 prices that will be delivered to the Portland Swap Meet.

If you need, or will need tires soon, better order them Now!
: ^ )

Really should watch what you say about Farmers. You do like to eat..... don't you?

maybe the government could give Model T owners some type of subsidy/welfare like they do the soybean farmers.

The soybean subsidy didn't come close to covering what I lost.

REHelgeson wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:17 pm

Really should watch what you say about Farmers. You do like to eat..... don't you?

Who said anything bad about farmers? Just because they get subsidies/welfare for soybeans and depend on programs like SNAP and government mandated Ethelene in gasoline does not mean something bad has been said about them. A lot of them are 4th and 5th generation, they inherited huge farms and the necessary equipment, nothing wrong with that.

Seems like us Model T owners should get some subsidies/welfare too!

obviously don't know what you are talking about.

REHelgeson wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:37 pm

obviously don't know what you are talking about.

If you are referring to me, obviously you can show something I said that is incorrect.

A few articles:

Farm subsidies have never made economic sense, but farm interests have held sway in Congress. While farmers are a small share of the U.S. population today, the farm lobby is still strong. One reason is that farm-state legislators have co-opted the support of urban legislators by including food-stamp subsidies in farm bills. Other legislators support farm bills because of the inclusion of conservation subsidies.
https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/ag ... /subsidies


Today, 99 percent of American farms are still “family farms” owned by families, according to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). But like Shirley Gray’s, increasingly, many of them are not actually family-farmed.
Roughly 355 million acres nationally—almost 40 percent of all farmland—are rented out by non-farming landlords to other farm operators. In Iowa, that number is much higher. More than half of all farmland in the state is farmed by renters, generating rental revenue of $3.7 billion
And although more than 60 percent of America’s farmland is owned by people aged 65 and older, most of this farmland is not expected to come up for sale when owners die. In fact, only about 2 percent of farmland in the country will be sold to people other than family members in the coming years. Instead, most land will be passed on to the next generation via wills, trusts, or sale to other family members
https://newfoodeconomy.org/farmland-ren ... mily-farm/

Each year program participants spend roughly $70 billion in SNAP benefits, including more than $22.4 million at farmers markets in 2017. While SNAP helps low-income Americans purchase food, the program also supports farmers and farmers markets in all 50 states
https://farmersmarketcoalition.org/advocacy/snap/

The Farm Bill is popularly associated with the provision of agricultural subsidies, conservation programs, and new farm policies. So why should we care about it when we’re talking about the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)? Because for the past several decades, the legislation authorizing SNAP has been included in the Farm Bill. In fact, the nutrition title is the largest of the 12 titles covered in the Farm Bill. Of the programs covered by nutrition, SNAP accounts for 95% of all spending. Overall, nutrition spending makes up 80% of the total budget for the Farm Bill.
https://www.snaptohealth.org/farm-bill- ... farm-bill/

Since its creation of the domestic market for corn ethanol after the energy crisis of the 1970s, the federal government has nurtured and maintained the ethanol industry with a steady stream of subsidies.
Originally sold as a way to achieve energy independence and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, ethanol has been a favorite of many lawmakers: ethanol producers have received favorable treatment under the tax code, tariff protection from foreign competition, and even a government mandate for its use.
As a result, taxpayers have spent billions of dollars over the last 30 years subsidizing the production of corn ethanol, while at the same time creating unintended costs for consumers and the environment.
https://www.taxpayer.net/energy-natural ... -biofuels/

Now if we taxpayers can do all that for farmers, and then give them 10 billion extra for soybeans, why can't the taxpayers subsidize us Model T owners a little too? Tires are an important part of a vehicle, and for safety's sake we all NEED good tires. Universal's prices go up March 11 !


Oh, you meant my miss-speelink of "ethanol"? Auto correct got me and I did not catch it, but fire away.

I would assume flaps are going up too... Can't see why they'd raise prices on all the other rubber stuff and not those. Ordering this week, thanks for the heads up!

Jason, I ask the same question. Tubes and all are going up. How did we go from talking about the price of a tire to talking about a Farmer? This got derailed quick.

rnwilliams wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:47 am

How did we go from talking about the price of a tire to talking about a Farmer?

Here's how. If you read the thread from the beginning you will see that some were questioning whether the increase in tire prices was due to tariffs. Tariffs don't just effect tire prices, and when they ran down the price farmers were getting for soy beans the government came up with a subsidy/welfare plan to help out farmers. So why shouldn't the government come up with a subsidy/welfare plan to help us Model T owners too?

This is just a slight rough patch. Tariffs are easy. When fully implemented you will see American manufacturers making tires here in America. American made, excellent quality (no white tires that turn brown), and with the free market system in full effect you will see prices drop dramatically as competition runs prices down and quality up! This is a win-win for all of us, we just need to be patient. In the meantime, a little help from the government, like farmers get, would be nice. The farmers are just an example of how this could work, there are others.

wasn't ready to order tires yet, but going to now. Has anyone bought the 21in economy tires from Summit and the cheaper tubes? Going on a unrestored but running and driving Model A that wont be drove a lot.

My apologies for dragging this discussion in the wrong direction. Sometimes things posted here strike a raw nerve. There is no need for politics on this board. I know better.

Thanks for the heads up, I am putting new tires on my wife's Subaru today. The guy at the tires store verified the increase and I was due for tires soon.

I'm not sure I agree with the poster that suggests tariffs will eventually result in US manufacturers producing Model T tubes and tires. The market is very small, and my understanding is that one of the problems is that the design and construction of such tires does not meet US DOT standards, essentially forcing manufacture offshore. Aren't some of the currently available tires imported as motorcycle tires? Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in on the issue.

Per Snyder’s catalog, the Goodyear 4.50” x 21” tires are still made in the USA.


"These 21" Goodyear tires are a 4-ply polyester tire available in either black wall or white wall. These quality tires are made in the U.S.A. 4.50" x 21" these tires fit 1926-27 Model T's and 1928-29 Model A's, 2-7/8" white Wall.”

If motorcycle tires are made in America can't understand why Model T tires aren't. And sorry of all places vietnam.

Richard, I owe you a beer or two! I just ordered my four tires for my 1910 T and if it hadn't been for your heads up on the soon-to-be price increase, I'd have been spending a WHOLE lot more on tires! Thanks!!!

John - I think Dunlop is the only company that makes motorcycle tires in the US. I believe Dunlop Model T tires are made in Britain and even they don't make all sizes. I could be wrong but that's what my research came up with.

Is tire air going up also? I need to stock up on some extra 5 gallon containers!!!!

It will be interesting to see what the price is after March 1st. I looked into this and everything points to the tariffs imposed on Chinese goods being imported into the U.S. as the reason. I can understand that but I don't understand how that affects tires manufactured in Vietnam and imported into the U.S..

Hey Bill, I will take you up on that Beer. Next time I'm in Michigan or your in Tennessee. I also ordered a set of 21" Firestones to be picked up at Chickasha.

I don't understand how that affects tires manufactured in Vietnam.

I've read that clincher manufacture has moved to Taiwan, but even if that's the case the same question applies.

Maybe this is just a convenience to raise all tire prices by the tire companies regardless of source of origin.

I just got off the phone with Coker. I ordered 2) 600-20 and 2) 30 x 3 1/2 Firestone for my TT to be delivered at Chickasha. He said that the 600 20s are made in in USA. The front tires are are not. The current prices are good till March 10th. I asked about the amount of increase. The tires I am getting are increasing a little over $20.00 each.

It wouldn’t be so bad if the tires were better made and lasted longer.

Just in case you need 21 inch tires. This seems like a good deal & free shipping.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cok-78705/overview/

I don't get it???? I bought a rear tire for a 750 Ford backhoe, got to be moved with a fork lift that was $630 with taxes. Get out your calculator and divide a 30 x 3 1/2 (bike tire) into that monster= backhoe tire rubber.
My batterys may be dead on calculator I keep getting $63 dollars for a common T tire I admitt I am math
brain dead but this is like buying a house ( T tire ) then buying a shed as a big truck tire I don't get it...

My 1924 Western Auto catalog says their top of the line tires are 7,000 mile tires... By that measure I think all the repro tires are at least as good, if not better than 1920’s tires.

The repro tires of the 60’s and 70’s have reputations of lasting “forever”. I think they were probably a harder tire and the current repros are much softer. A soft tire is probably the best tire for a T for all reasons but “economy”. A soft tire is easy to install, quiet, rides better, has better traction and better stopping. They just don’t last as long.

Tom, how can you have a free market when one end is protected/manipulated by tariffs?

Allan from own under.

allan wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:30 pm

Tom, how can you have a free market when one end is protected/manipulated by tariffs?

Allan from own under.

Well, if you are asking me, respectfully, I can't answer without someone thinking it political. And I strongly feel that religion and politics need to be kept off of the forum.

Tom, of course, tariffs are political.

I suspect Bob Helgeson may be nearer the mark. It's amazing that any increase somewhere in the supply chain gets spread evenly over the whole chain.

The real problem is the lack of competition in the market for clincher tyres. With an oligopoly in the supply chain, there is unlikely to be any improvement, in price, quality or tread wear. If Scat can specify forgings of a specific quality from Chinese suppliers so they have a reliable end product to sell, it should not be beyond the tyre suppliers to set similar standards for the products they have manufactured in Viet Nam. Tyres which wear out in a one way trip from L.A. to Richmond for the Centennial, others which crack so badly within two years that they will not pass a Warrant of Fitness, are clearly not fit for their intended purpose. It doesn't have to be this way.

Allan from down under.

One solution would be to start your own tire company and produce a better product at a lower price.

Let me state now for the record that I will buy your first 4 production tires. Never let it be said that I don't support the hobby.

I ordered a new tire to beat the price increase and it was delivered today.

If I'm reading the date code correctly, this tire was made about the middle of last April. If all clincher production has moved to Taiwan as rumored, it happened since then.

Scott, at 73 and existing on superannuation payments, I have neither the desire or the capital to go into tyre manufacture.
There have been many posts on the forum bemoaning the out of spec, poorly made, non authentic looking, poor functioning reproduction parts made available to us. The current crop of tyres is no exception, and while they remain to be of such poor quality, I can not understand the unwillingness of some to call them out. I'll eventually run out of good old Olympics from the seventies and will have to buy some new rubbish, but I don't have to like them.

Allan from down under.

I got free shipping on my new tires. I had Donald Trump bring me back a set from Viet Nam yesterday, now I just have to get to D.C. to pick them up.

Steve, how does one read a date code ? I'm seeing "1618". How does that translate to mid-April ? The "18" seems self-explanatory.

Allan, I fear the lack of durable quality in all manner of repro items is "fed" by a majority of cars that are rarely driven, and if at all, for very short distance. Many restorers are satisfied with a part that fills the space when they don't have to put it to the test of regular use. Makers know that too often, it seems low price always wins over quality in the marketplace.

Rich, The tire was made on the 161st day of 2018.

Just heard from Universal that their new prices go into effect March 10th. An all black 30x3+1/2 T-Driver will go up $20 which I don’t think is too bad seeing as they haven’t gone up at all in the last few years.

Allan

I am not picking on you, but you did a very good job of illustrating exactly why there is no competition. I no more have the capital to start a tire company as you. Rich jumped in and finished the point...Let's say you, I and Rich pool our resources, say like 3-6 million dollars, buy the land, get the permits, make the tires, dispose of the waste, pay the mortgage, pay our employees, sell the tires less than the established factory sells them for, so we have sales at all, and see where we are in 5 years. My guess is, broke. That's why we all live with the tires we have. Actually my most recent Riversides have about 3000 miles on them and still have half their tread. I doubt that's any worse wear than a farmer got in 1919 making multiple trips to town.

As far as poorly made reproduction items, it appears to me that the suppliers are catering to the folks who spend the money. As someone who has dabbled in making a quality product for the hobby, over a range of products, I have constantly over estimated the enthusiasm of T owners to buy a quality item for anywhere near the cost it takes to produce, much less put a little change in my pocket. The line at the table of poorly made products for $2 will stretch around the block, while the guy with a great part for $2.25 can take a nap. I used to complain about poor parts in the T hobby, too, until I fancied getting into the supply business. I now know EXACTLY why those parts are in the marketplace, and am now darn glad to see them at all.

With regard to tires, it seems that folks want not only better tires, but cheaper to boot. If there was an emoticon showing me rolling on the floor laughing, it would be right *here*

Dean, thanks for the reply. So that would be June 10, rather than mid April ?

Scott, to add two things, whenever I've set about making a reproduction part, I've found it challenging. It's very difficult to "reverse engineer" even non-mechanical parts, and perfection vis a vis "OEM" is elusive !
I'll have to see if I can estimate the current age and mileage on the tires my Lizzie came with. So far they're holding up well, and I'm quite sure you're correct to say that today's tires with all their faults are probably no worse than many tires were 100 years ago. I'll also bet that owners in the day didn't much care if white tires they bought turned brown, but that's not to say that we shouldn't be able to expect better nowadays, given the vastly different role all Model Ts now play.

Rich

your point on white tires is something worth delving into. Much discussion has been made over whether or not they were white or a grey...not many folks with first hand experience and good memories left, No? My perspective for long lived white tires is this: If the tires primary purpose is to stay "white", then the solution is obviously "paint".

Without carbon for toughness, or tread for grip, just exactly how long did early tires last? One clue is the number of pictures of tires wearing tires. Not to mention the plethora of products resembling girdles, to hold tires together. And did ANY of those early tires ever see asphalt? Likely darn few. Did they stay white in use? Of course not. Did they turn brown? Who cared? All they needed to do was hold air. Age cracks? Undoubtedly. Later tires were a remarkable improvement in wear characteristics, but did all of the advertisements for tire balms or repairs dissappear? I wonder why not? My suspicion is the apex of "Quality" T tire manufacturing was well after the cars were out of daily use, had become curiosities, and it was a boutique business, with no OSHA or EPA and all the workers cleaned their tools with rags and benzine, while a cigarette dangled from their lips. So, where can we find similar favorable conditions these days to make extremely small runs of tires? I think the label on Steve's tire tells us where.

Now, what was a typical working lifespan of a T, given that it was being obsoleted by other car companies daily? My guess is that the "new" Riversides on my car have by now been on the car longer than the car was in active purposeful use. And I should complain that 1/2 the tread is gone or sidewall cracks are appearing?!?

When I see some of the complaints over trivial things, here, in the media, on the internet (and I admit joining in), I often reflect on the luxury of having such frivolous worries. Some could claim that it is truely a First World Curse, others, a Blessing. It's just your point of view.

I think a lot of the hipe on tires prices are result in new marketing techniques. Excessive inventories, tell people due to tariffs (I don’t see it), just a way to scare people into purchase now. There is no rubber shortage, fuel prices are down, just creed. The prices will come back down when they make their sale predictions.

Since our hobby is lacking younger interest, they will over produce and then have sales, look back 15 years ago, history repeats itself

Just my $0.02,

Hank in Tin-A-See

Supply and demand, capitalism at work! The problem is a lack of demand. The demand is so small that the cost of production can't be brought down for cheaper-by-the-dozen to work.

We should be glad that T tires are even available.

I am glad tires are available, tires for other cars seem to be going out or production or something.
But you're'll getting tires for $189?

They'd be more like $600 each down under.

Regardless of whether the price went up or is going up, this last week has been "Tire Week" for me. 4 Coopers for the "beat around town" truck, 4 Michelins across the back of the Dually, 4 Maxxis 8008's for the enclosed trailer. First time for the Maxxis tires, since I was disgusted at how bad Goodyear Endurances were. I barely got a third of the mileage I used to get with their Marathons. Lastly I ordered 4 American Classics from Coker for the 64 GP. I got the $60.00 rebate that is good until the 15th! Glad they won't be here till mid week, because after yesterday I am tired of looking at my Tire Machine!

God bless
Bill
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... ed.614419/

The whole point of a tariff is to make a product more expensive. Economics is not a barred subject, so here is what happens. Due to higher labor costs and perhaps environmental regulations, a product is more expensive to manufacture in say - Denmark, then in Uganda. Manufacturers have their products made in Uganda, which costs Denmark manufacturing jobs because customers in Denmark can purchase the foreign-made products cheaper then domestic products. Denmark puts a tariff on the Ugandan products to make them as (or more) expensive then the Denmark-produced items. Result? Many of the manufacturing jobs return to Denmark and the products are now sold at the higher domestically-produced price. Their will likely be a few less products manufactured because some of Denmark's citizens either cannot or will not afford to pay the new higher price. That's just the way it works.

If I'm reading the date code correctly

I wasn't sure. I was guessing that 16 was the 16th week of the year and that 18 was the year. That would be mid-April. But if the code means the 161st day of the year, that would be June 10.

Either way, if production has moved to Taiwan it was since this tire was made.

Steve, I believe you are right. They in the past only used the 8 for the year and then you had to guess what decade it was by the newness of the condition of the tire. Not sure how long ago they made the change.

John Codman wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:25 am

The whole point of a tariff is to make a product more expensive. Economics is not a barred subject, so here is what happens. Due to higher labor costs and perhaps environmental regulations, a product is more expensive to manufacture in say - Denmark, then in Uganda. Manufacturers have their products made in Uganda, which costs Denmark manufacturing jobs because customers in Denmark can purchase the foreign-made products cheaper then domestic products. Denmark puts a tariff on the Ugandan products to make them as (or more) expensive then the Denmark-produced items. Result? Many of the manufacturing jobs return to Denmark and the products are now sold at the higher domestically-produced price. Their will likely be a few less products manufactured because some of Denmark's citizens either cannot or will not afford to pay the new higher price. That's just the way it works.

Yes, but... treading on thin ice here because some people want to make everything political and I am not here to offend, ...you have given a very basic and good text book explanation of how A tariff works.

But it gets more complicated than that because often more than one product is involved, more than one tariff is involved, more than one nation is involved, retaliatory tariffs are imposed, and a trade war ensues as the markets attempt to rebalance.

These issues can usually be smoothed over by multilateral negotiation and trade deals. Several large nations will make a regional deal and everything else falls into place behind that. When these deals are upset without lots of prior negotiation, or done unilaterally, one can not expect things to go smoothly. Think Smoot Hawley.

I don't know if the tire prices are the result of tariffs or not. But, I do know that China cut their purchase of soy beans and that resulted in a price drop which the taxpayers are picking up by subsidizing farmers more than before. Farm welfare is nothing new, but this was brought on by China reacting to a tariff. And it was not a retaliatory tariff, China just decided to quit buying American soybeans because of another tariff they don't like.

So tariffs do not just hurt one industry, they can get complicated and hurt taxpayers in something they have no involvement in.

The increased price of tires might be indirectly the result of tariffs, just as the increase in farm subsidies for soy beans is indirectly the result of tariffs.

The solution is to figure out how to manufacture rubber out of soybean oil.

Tom, of course you are correct. My example was for a single item. That's rarely the way it works. As I recall, the original "new" tariffs were on steel and aluminum. Higher aluminum prices will make airplanes more expensive. More expensive airplanes will make ticket prices higher. Higher airplane prices are likely to encourage airlines to keep their airplanes longer; this will hurt new airplane sales. It's all interrelated.