Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
Pep C Strebeck
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:12 am
First Name: Joseph
Last Name: M
Location: MI
MTFCA Number: 0

Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Pep C Strebeck » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:49 pm

Looking for some information from those that may have an original drive shaft bushing facing tool, like those shown below:
882127.jpg
Drive-shaft-bushing-reamer-Stevens.jpg
Drive-shaft-bushing-reamer-Stevens.jpg (35.22 KiB) Viewed 6990 times

I am looking for the diameter of the cutting face from an original tool. The overall outside diameter of the thrust surface of the bushing is 1.5625" (1-9/16") and I can not remember if the diameter of the cutting face was 1.500" or 1.5625" in diameter. In short, does the original tool face off the surface completely or does it leave a lip/pocket/counterbore for the universal joint to "nest" into. This is a bit of information that did not stick around since the last time a rebuild of this type was done by me. Also, if anyone has a dimension for the tool that is sold by the vendors I would be interested in that as well.
475526l.jpg

All photos stolen from the internet without permission. Any and all information is appreciated.
"Remember son, there are two ways to do this: The right way, and your way” Thanks Dad, I love you too.

LOOKING FOR A LUFKIN No. 9A Height Gage Attachment.


Randall strickland
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:50 pm
First Name: Randall
Last Name: Strickland
Location: lambsburg va

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Randall strickland » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:40 pm

My Steven’s is 1.577
Attachments
2F225076-BC15-4D8C-B025-E516498E2C38.jpeg

User avatar

Topic author
Pep C Strebeck
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:12 am
First Name: Joseph
Last Name: M
Location: MI
MTFCA Number: 0

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Pep C Strebeck » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:35 pm

Randall, thank you for posting I appreciate the help and information. I am going to call on Monday and ask the vendors about this dimension on the spot facer that they sell. I have seen more than one reference to the diameter being 1.500" and that does not strike me as being correct. That seems a little tight with no margin for error and everything being "perfectly" in-line. But as I said before, I cannot remember from the last time I did this. I have also seen a lot of removed bushings with the lip on it as shown below:
IMG_6465.JPG
IMG_6466.JPG
The lip may just be from wear from the universal joint or maybe not. If anyone else has any other original spot facers for this bushing all information/examples are appreciated.
"Remember son, there are two ways to do this: The right way, and your way” Thanks Dad, I love you too.

LOOKING FOR A LUFKIN No. 9A Height Gage Attachment.

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 1930
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Oldav8tor » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:33 pm

My babbit bearing looks just like yours. I guess one question I would pose is how well does the facing tool work on brass bushings? I avoided the problem by installing a Fun Projects Modern Pinion Bearing which does not require facing the bushing to set the pinion gear - I had the brass bushing faced before installation.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor


Randall strickland
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:50 pm
First Name: Randall
Last Name: Strickland
Location: lambsburg va

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Randall strickland » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:54 pm

Pep measure thr diameter of u joint at rear, if it's less than 1.500 you should be good.


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Original Smith » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:33 am

I just measured a NOS Ford script babbet bushing I have and it is 1 9/16 across the face.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4957
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:10 am

After trying to use the original and new type, the angle of cut is to shallow for brass facing by hand. They may have worked fine for babbitt, but brass is a lot harder then babbitt. Measure the diameter of the U-joint. As long has the cutter is larger then that, it should be ok.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup

User avatar

KWTownsend
Posts: 1122
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:51 pm
First Name: Keith
Last Name: Townsend
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: late 1911 touring, 1915 runabout, 1919 touring, brass speedster
Location: Gresham, Orygun
MTFCA Number: 14778
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16305
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by KWTownsend » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:20 am

As Tim and Mark said, the new facing tools does work on Babbitt, but does not work on the new brass bushing. When doing a drive shaft, I face the bushing off on the lathe a little bit at a time until the pin hole lines up with the proper clearance. You might need to take it out and in a couple of times.

Patience is a virtue.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4957
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:29 am

It has been suggested in the past to turn down the outer diameter of the bushing a few thousandth for a sliding fit and when done cutting the face, clean and use Loctite Sleeve lock to hold in place.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by DanTreace » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:35 am

B4E87EDC-2A93-4D95-A53E-7C6706226F00.jpeg
My take is the facing reamer will remove all the face surface. Don’t have one as I always use Fun Projects set so just cut the face down of the new brass or bronze bushing on the mini mat lathe.

The wear pattern is from the u-joint as things wear out allowing the drive line to move into the bushing. Your wear is rather extreme indicating worn parts, typical wear of the old babbitt bushings is about like these.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:48 pm

I measured NOS Ford script Babbitt bushing faces (several) at 1.5630, NOS script u-joint faces (several) at 1.4850 - 1.500 - Stevens bushing driver at 1.500, Stevens bushing facer at 1.5750, another era facer - might be ALVORD - can't quite make out stamping & number at 1.5775 and the modern one sold nowadays at 1.5025 - all measured with a digital caliper.

User avatar

Sean Butler
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:22 pm
First Name: Sean
Last Name: Butler
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
MTFCA Number: 31557

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Sean Butler » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:33 pm

I've got the K.R. Wilson W17 Facer. It checks out at 1.5285. As the others have said, not too great on brass. I had mine sharpened and it still is weak for brass. Cuts the babbitt like butter, though!
Attachments
20190223_135527.jpg
20190223_135534.jpg
20190223_135611.jpg
Sean Butler
Huntington Beach, CA

User avatar

Topic author
Pep C Strebeck
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:12 am
First Name: Joseph
Last Name: M
Location: MI
MTFCA Number: 0

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Pep C Strebeck » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:36 am

Thank you for all the help and information. From the measurements taken from original tools, the diameters say that they would face off the entire thrust surface, 1.570"+ for most all of them with the K.R. Wilson one that Sean had posted being just slightly smaller, but still larger than the outside diameter of the universal joint (I like the easy way that the cutter indexes and is driven by the pin on the KRW cutter). I had called and spoken to 2 different vendors this morning and was told that the diameter of the cutting face for the new facing tools that they offer is 1.540" their measurements, not mine.

As for the condition and wear that was pointed out by Dan of the original bushing that I had posted in the earlier photo:
IMG_6466.JPG

This is not the bushing that I will be replacing. This one was removed from a drive shaft housing that was/is being used for mockup. I had removed it to test the replacement spring that I had made for my Stevens Drive Shaft Bushing Puller, as can be seen it worked as it should with no problems. The wear on this "mockup" drive shaft has been found to be significant, the I.D. of the Babbitt bushing comes in right around 1.017" at the front and back of the bushing and 1.011" in the center. the bearing surface on the drive shaft is 0.983". The back end of the drive shaft for the pinion bearing sleeve is worn, tapered. The dimension where the bearing sleeve would be pressed on is 0.982" at/towards the pinion end (under the sleeve) and then tapers up to 0.998" at the thrust bearing end. The pinion bearing cage was loose and flexing (I didn't bother to measure the rollers) and the pinion gear teeth were worn almost to knife edges. This had a lot of hard maintenance-free miles on it.

The only reason that I had bought the drive shaft was that it had a REAL GOOD looking universal joint on it. With all that was wrong with this drive shaft someone had replaced the universal joint, 6-7 thousandths on the trunnions.

Thank you all again for posting with the measurements/dimensions of the original tooling and for all of your help, it is appreciated.
"Remember son, there are two ways to do this: The right way, and your way” Thanks Dad, I love you too.

LOOKING FOR A LUFKIN No. 9A Height Gage Attachment.


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Original Smith » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:03 pm

I have never used anything but original Ford Babbitt front bushings. If they were good enough for Ford, they are good enough for me! I've got enough to last me the rest of my life.

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:46 pm

Me to, Larry !

User avatar

Sean Butler
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:22 pm
First Name: Sean
Last Name: Butler
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
MTFCA Number: 31557

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Sean Butler » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:08 pm

Larry & Steve: I'm curious to know if you're using NOS babbitt bearings or are you casting your own?
Sean Butler
Huntington Beach, CA

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:29 pm

I've picked up original Ford NOS over the years.


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Original Smith » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:03 am

The babbit front bushings always show up at swap meets and other places. You just never know when. When I see them, I always buy at least one!
The last one I bought, I paid $10 for.

User avatar

Sean Butler
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:22 pm
First Name: Sean
Last Name: Butler
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
MTFCA Number: 31557

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Sean Butler » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:46 am

A-OK.jpg
A-OK.jpg (3.86 KiB) Viewed 6525 times
Sean Butler
Huntington Beach, CA

User avatar

Sean Butler
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:22 pm
First Name: Sean
Last Name: Butler
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
MTFCA Number: 31557

Re: Drive shaft bushing spot facer, diameter.

Post by Sean Butler » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:32 pm

If I'd been smart enough to turn the cutter wheel over, I would have seen this marking. Definitely a few thou under, though.
Attachments
20190225_194042.jpg
Sean Butler
Huntington Beach, CA

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic