Replacing front crossmember
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Topic author - Posts: 373
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Replacing front crossmember
The front cross-member on my old rusty '20 is broken completely in half. I found a very nice one at a swap meets a couple weeks ago. Now the question is how to install the new one. I have zero experience riveting. A friend suggested turning nut heads in a lathe so they look like rivet heads. Looking for suggestions.
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
IMHO
these can be your good friend, or even a couple big bolts with nuts, to be your bucker.
Do it once and do it right. Take some before pics, as different spots are riveted differently. By the time you are done you will be an expert at riveting. No matter how you cut it, it’s a nasty job, and only just a bit nastier doing it right, instead of cheating. A couple jacks like these can be your good friend, or even a couple big bolts with nuts, to be your bucker.
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
Here is a tip to keep the new cross member in place and you probably know how to do it anyway.
What I did is to bolt the crossmember in place with the same size bolts as the rivet. When you start to install the new rivets remove each bolt one at a time and then install the rivet.
Yes it sounds simple but it will keep the holes lined up with no issues.
What I did is to bolt the crossmember in place with the same size bolts as the rivet. When you start to install the new rivets remove each bolt one at a time and then install the rivet.
Yes it sounds simple but it will keep the holes lined up with no issues.
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
Chris,
I never riveted anything until I did my front cross member. I learned quickly and the overall experience was a very good one. I suggest you purchase several more rivets than you think you will need. Some will not set as they are supposed to. The small machinists jack (shown above) would have made my job MUCH easier. It would be well worth the money for you to purchase one of them. I used the rivet tool sold by the vendors - air powered type. Worked very well.
Go For It Chris
Good Luck,
Terry
I never riveted anything until I did my front cross member. I learned quickly and the overall experience was a very good one. I suggest you purchase several more rivets than you think you will need. Some will not set as they are supposed to. The small machinists jack (shown above) would have made my job MUCH easier. It would be well worth the money for you to purchase one of them. I used the rivet tool sold by the vendors - air powered type. Worked very well.
Go For It Chris
Good Luck,
Terry
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
I was going to post a like to Steve Jelf's old thread, but I see that someone already has.
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
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Topic author - Posts: 373
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
Rivets, jack, and bucking tool on order now. This will be a new experience.
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
A rivet "jack" can be made very easily by using an "All Thread" coupling nut. They are much longer than a standard nut. Just check out what size and length bolt you need and drill/form the head of the bolt to what you need for a buck. Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
Looking at my previous post in the link above, I noticed something I didn't mention.
I attached the bracket to the cross member out of the car and installed them together. The bracket and the old cross member had been bolted in, so it was easy to unbolt them and do that part of the job on the bench.
I attached the bracket to the cross member out of the car and installed them together. The bracket and the old cross member had been bolted in, so it was easy to unbolt them and do that part of the job on the bench.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
I've been told that its easier if 3 people are involved - one to manage the bucking bar, someone to torch the rivet and keep it red and the third person to drive the rivet into place OR 2 experienced senior citizens who have done it many times before.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Topic author - Posts: 373
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
A shout out to Steve Jelf. Thanks for taking the time to document things like this. Looks like you guys did a jam up job.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
Be careful as to the order of installing the rivets on the front cross member
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
An important point to note when you're doing the job (and really the main reason for riveting rather than bolting):
The entire rivet should be heated, ideally in a forge, before putting in place and hammering. If you can't do this then at least the entire shaft should be heated by whatever mechanism you choose.
This is because it's important for the rivet to expand radially to properly fill the hole it's placed in, as well as compress longitudinally. This allows proper lateral fixing of the chassis members - and thus minimisation of movement between members - in addition to the simple clamping of one member to another.
To be clear, if you just heat the end of the rivet in place, then hammer, you will be unlikely to achieve the best fixing you could and would in fact be better off bolting the members together as bolting will give a better clamping force (albeit to the detriment of aesthetics). This is because in heating just the rivet end and hammering all you're really doing is forming a head with the soft metal, and not compressing/deforming the relatively harder shaft against the receptacle it's fitted into.
In fact I suggest that (if you've a strong enough air hammer and buck) cold hammering throughout the operation would probably be better than heating just the rivet end.
One other thing; if the buck isn't the right size you can re-form it, or create a new one, simply by heating the end and hammering it over a rivet head or suitably sized ball bearing, then quenching in oil to harden it. My recollection of T chassis rivets is that some of them are 5/16" (?) and, at least in NZ, it was impossible to get the correct buck size, so I made a completely new tool for this. I also made the rivets since they were unobtainable as well, but that's another story...
The entire rivet should be heated, ideally in a forge, before putting in place and hammering. If you can't do this then at least the entire shaft should be heated by whatever mechanism you choose.
This is because it's important for the rivet to expand radially to properly fill the hole it's placed in, as well as compress longitudinally. This allows proper lateral fixing of the chassis members - and thus minimisation of movement between members - in addition to the simple clamping of one member to another.
To be clear, if you just heat the end of the rivet in place, then hammer, you will be unlikely to achieve the best fixing you could and would in fact be better off bolting the members together as bolting will give a better clamping force (albeit to the detriment of aesthetics). This is because in heating just the rivet end and hammering all you're really doing is forming a head with the soft metal, and not compressing/deforming the relatively harder shaft against the receptacle it's fitted into.
In fact I suggest that (if you've a strong enough air hammer and buck) cold hammering throughout the operation would probably be better than heating just the rivet end.
One other thing; if the buck isn't the right size you can re-form it, or create a new one, simply by heating the end and hammering it over a rivet head or suitably sized ball bearing, then quenching in oil to harden it. My recollection of T chassis rivets is that some of them are 5/16" (?) and, at least in NZ, it was impossible to get the correct buck size, so I made a completely new tool for this. I also made the rivets since they were unobtainable as well, but that's another story...
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
To further illustrate what I was describing above here's a couple of video clips on the how to go about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1m1egXY5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWmFxtGw_Lo
At about 1:30 on this video you can see a good example of what I was getting at about how the rivet should expand against the material it's fixing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o526BPSxJc4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1m1egXY5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWmFxtGw_Lo
At about 1:30 on this video you can see a good example of what I was getting at about how the rivet should expand against the material it's fixing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o526BPSxJc4
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Re: Replacing front crossmember
Whew thanks Luke, that extra bit of info on why to heat the whole rivet was timely to ensure the joint is tight...
Thanks again, Cheers
Thanks again, Cheers