MTFCA Forum

I came across some mention in other threads about using motorcycle oil in a Model T. Since many motorcycles share the engine oil with the transmission like our T's, I wonder if the formulation would have any advantages over conventional automotive oil? Anybody care to comment?

Tim I find just using plain 30 WT Rotella from TSC works great! Why spend like $7.00 a quart?

Hank

Motorcycle engine and transmission sharing the same sump? Well ever hear of a Morris Minor - the Mini? Engine and transmission share the same oil. And it works. One minor problem is the metal from the transmission finding its want in the engine oil galleys. Straight weight or multigrade worked fine.

I was always told that motorcycle oil was used because it contained zinc and that zinc was a necessary additive to aid valve seats that were not replaced with hardened steel.

OIL for a TYPE OF ENGINE-TRANSMISSION should not be confused with detergent/non-detergent oil, conventional vs synthetic oil or oil-viscosity. These, if necessary, should be discussed in their own post. The similarity of the Model T engine / transmission (wet-clutch) to some Motorcycle combinations is what the pros & cons are about.
Car engine oils contain friction modifiers and are formulated with the aim of reducing friction between moving parts in order to provide good fuel economy and efficiency. Also, these oils contain detergent additives, whose ash content is relatively high. If used in motorcycle engines, these could result in the formation of deposits on the piston crowns as well as the valve train. Because detergents are the main cause of pressure build up, this will cause perforation and burning on the components.
Motorcycles, on the other hand, use the same oil for both the engine and the gearbox. They are therefore uniquely formulated to offer protection for engine components and the gears. Compared to car engines, a motorcycle engine oil requires balanced friction characteristics as it needs to lubricate the wet clutch, which in turn transfers engine power to the drivetrain. If the friction level is too low, the clutch will not be able to engage and will cause slippage. Motorcycle oils are formulated to handle the transmission, more specifically, the wet clutches found in most bikes. The oil needs to be slippery enough to protect the engine, but not too slippery. This means that they strike a good balance between clutch performance, engine, and transmission protection. This is something that is not considered in the manufacturing of car oil
Using Diesel Engine Oils in a Motorcycle (Wet Clutch) https://www.oildepot.ca/diesel-engine-o ... torcycles/ Need to read it all to understand their point of view
Wet-Clutch Performance And Longevity
Diesel oils may not cause clutch plate glazing, but they are not formulated with wet-clutch performance and preservation in mind. AMSOIL Synthetic Motorcycle Oils are formulated to fight clutch fade and provide consistent clutch “feel”. They deliver steady clutch performance under high heat and extreme loads. Dedicated motorcycle oils will maintain the correct frictional properties over long service intervals.

If you have oil getting to the seats, time for some valve work. Zink was added when the higher pressure springs started being used in the 50's, to help prevent wear between the lifters and cam.

Frank B covered it, it's all about the clutch, as for the Morris, they had a dry clutch.

One of our presidents in the early '80s, Fred Houston, suggested motorcycle oil simply because the engine and transmission world lubricated with the same oil, same as in the Model T engine. He did suggest either to use either standard oil or synthetic for your choice as long as it was motorcycle type oil. I have been using Mobil 1 synthetic motorcycle oil, 10w40, since our engine was rebuilt almost 20 years ago. Yes I do have some oil leaks which is common with our engines at the front crank seal, but there are no signs of oil burning in combustion.

The 1953-54 Plymouths offered a semi-automatic transmission called the Hy-drive. It was basically a manual transmission with a torque converter. The engine and Hy-drive transmission (including the torque converter), shared the oil supply which of course was the engine oil - all 10 quarts of it!.

I've been using non synthetic motorcycle oil since rebuilding my T. It it working well with the Turbo 400 Clutch and the engine. So far no issues and the clutch is working well.

Any benefits of using motorcycle oil in a Model T are purely psychological.....

Erik Johnson wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 am

Any benefits of using motorcycle oil in a Model T are purely psychological.....

Is that a quote from Freud's "Interpretation of Dreams" or "The Ego and the Id"?

I am thinking that using the Turbo 400 clutch disk would be different then stock just stock T disk. The 400 clutch disks are lined so more grabbing power.

I have the Turbo 400 clutch in my T - it is my first Model T so I have no basis of comparison to original Ford clutches.

Tim: I found using motorcycle oil gives great transmission engagement with less or no band engagement shudders, and good engine response. Like I mentioned, I have the usual oil drippings when parked, but those traveling behind often said they didn't see any exhaust cloud from burning engine oil......surely any other engine will have different results depending on wear.

Driving one's Model T with two wheels removed REQUIRES the use of
motorcycle oil. Check the manual ! Failure to do so voids the warranty !

Frank, the manual transmissions on Mini's had a dry clutch. The 4 speed autos used the common sump. It was not a good idea, as the contaminated oils led to transmission failures, and the factory recommended drastically reduced oil change intervals to help alleviate this.

Toyota tried to change history with the claim of the first four speed auto in a small 4 cylinder car, the late 70's Corolla, completely ignoring the fact that Minis and 1100's had same well before.

Allan from down under.

After reading all these responses, I wonder how many Model T owners choose motorcycle oil to be in there cars.... No intention of pushing this type of oil, just curious to find out amongst owners who really appreciate an oil that will help their model T.

I only have one quart left and I'm not putting it in my T.

As ever, the consensus is: Yes ! Definitely. Use oil in your Model T !!

Of course, we all know this is the best oil for your Model T.

Whenever I see a post like this I always have to ask Do you experiment on your “Modern” the same way and why.

Charlie B in N.J. wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:24 am

Whenever I see a post like this I always have to ask Do you experiment on your “Modern” the same way and why.

Charlie,

The Model T, being incredibly simple and basic in its design, seems to present an "empty canvas" to those who like to "innovate" and "improve". It just invites tinkering. Part of its charm I guess.

Hearing some of the cars racing around the area I live in, there is a lot of experimenting going on with them! My 1996 S10 (if you can call that modern), calls for 5-20 or 5-30 oil. Because it is a high mileage engine, I am experimenting with 10-40. The engine in it is earlier then the truck so have been trying to get the EGR valve sorted out. The computer was made for an electromagnet type but the engine in it now is setup for a vacuum control valve. So spending time trying to sort that out. Even experimented with an adapter plate to mount the original type EGR valve back on, that was a no go.

Charlie B in N.J. wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:24 am

Whenever I see a post like this I always have to ask Do you experiment on your “Modern” the same way and why.

YES! Because I have to.

Merry Christmas Charlie and all Forum... As far as my modern car I really don't have to experiment I just have to read my owner's manual and go by the manufacturers express the use of the oil that has to be used. Same thing applies if I bought a new motorcycle today I'd have to read the owner's manual and if it says to use a specific oil because the same oil lubricates the transmission and the engine that's what I have to use. When Henry manufactured his Model T, there wasn't the same specific modern oils for specific engines like we have today........ Being knowledgeable today of specific oil applications if someone had an engine with both transmission and engine being lubricated by the same oil, the owner would most likely choose that motorcycle oil for his Model T engine / transmission..........If a Model T owner does not want to use motorcycle oil that's fine, as long as they use the non detergent 30 weight oil .

If you want to be original then one of the brands shown should suffice. All depends on what has been done to the engine & transmission

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:09 pm

....If a Model T owner does not want to use motorcycle oil that's fine, as long as they use the non detergent 30 weight oil .

??? Isn't motorcycle oil a detergent oil?

I use whatever oil I wish to, is that fine too? Sure hope so.

Oil for motorcycles, being air cooled, is a completely different formula designed to work in higher heat. As for "Synthetic" oil I was at a seminar talking about the differences in oils. The speaker told the audience that "Synthetic" lubricates better. His example was "If your car now leaks one drop of oil a mile, with "Synthetic's better lubricating qualities it will now leak five drops. I wonder how many drops a Model T would drop?

Motorcycles and Model T transmissions typically run at 200F+ oil temperatures and both run their engine oil through gears.

Google:

"shear"
"viscosity-index improvers"
"causes for oil viscosity reduction"

you will come to better understand why some people tout the benefits of running a motorcycle oil in a T

at the very least, you will understand why the 10W-30 you put in poured a little slowly and why it often comes out much quicker.

Would be interesting to hear from the coast-to-coast run participants what oi they run in their cars. Those machines running 400 miles daily for days on end would test any oil. I'm curious as to which brands, types, and viscosities they use.

Kevin: I do not drive coast to coast, but I do use 10-W-40 Mobil One synthetic oil in the '26 Runabout.... Dripps ?? will happen with any oil. Sealed locations will hold back dripps.

Would be interesting to hear from the coast-to-coast run participants...

I didn't ask any of them, but I did ask a couple of long-distance T drivers with decades of experiemnce. One said 15W-40 and the other said 20W-50 Kendall. I didn't ask why that particular brand.

Nobody puts on more miles than Dean Yoder. Make a post with his name in subject line and ask him. He will be more than happy to answer.

DHort wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:39 am

Nobody puts on more miles than Dean Yoder. Make a post with his name in subject line and ask him. He will be more than happy to answer.

Is his engine stock - no modifications oil lines, pistons, oil passages - just like yours?

I believe so.

All this is good and well, but how many motorcycles have fiction lined bands as part of the transmission and all steel clutch disk? Does not matter in my OP what oil you use, even in a car with a filter, it goes in slower then it comes out.

Has anyone contacted Dean Yoder for his comments and/or experience with motorcycle oil for the Model T engine?

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:43 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:09 pm

....If a Model T owner does not want to use motorcycle oil that's fine, as long as they use the non detergent 30 weight oil .

??? Isn't motorcycle oil a detergent oil?

I use whatever oil I wish to, is that fine too? Sure hope so.

I doubt that all motorcycle oil is a detergent oil but enough is that you should find out what is in the oil before its use.

A few years ago I bought and brought a 1978 Honda Goldwing back to life for use as a daily rider. I could not locate any non-detergent oil in my area that met the requirements for the bike. Because the motor, wet clutch, magneto and transmission all shared the same oil it was imperative that I locate a non-detergent oil without unnecessary additives yet with the proper viscosity. After conducting a significant amount of due diligence I found that the original (read as "plain") Rotella-T met my need for the bike.

I am not suggesting the use of this or any other oil, however, I do suggest that an individual conduct their own due diligence prior to using (or doing) something out of the ordinary prior to initiation of their idea. My suggestion is to do enough research before experimentation in an attempt to mitigate or at least minimize the chance of harm to your vehicle or to yourself.

1978 Honda GL1000 service manual page 34 of 86: Engine oil is a major factor affecting the performance and service life of the engine. Non-detergent,vegetable, or castor based racing oils are not recommended.

and further: Recommended Oil Viscosity SAE IOW·40

Regarding experimenting with our moderns like we do with our T's, I must admit I do. I've compared fuel economy of gasoline vs E-10, E-15, and E-30 in my eco-boost F150. They all are worse than straight gas but e-10 is cheaper/mile unless straight gas is less than 10% more cost. I am currently experimenting with adding a small (1:200) 2-stroke oil to my 6.2 gas F-250 as an engine top cylinder lube. I've acquired 5-6 gallons of the stuff for a song at an auction. I'm also playing with use of ATF in small quantities for the same reason. (also nearly free at auctions) Since most engine manufacturers state that a quart usage in 1000 miles is "normal", I doubt I'll hurt my catalytic converter. I have previously read how increasing oil mixture without diluting fuel usage in 2 stroke motorcycles (necessitating jet changes) increased HP on a dynamometer to the point of fouling the plugs. I like to play with engines! How different is this than increasing compression, valve lift, intake and exhaust systems, ignition systems, and all the other things we do to our engines?

yup SCOTT ....... motorcycle oil , 10 W 40 , for four cycle engines. Damn, the same as the Model T engine with the same oil lubricating the engine AND transmission . We have used Mobil One Motorcycle Oil (synthetic ) for almost 20 years as recommended by Fred Houston, our past president of the MTFCA who rebuilt the transmission of our '26 Runabout during the engine rebuild by Ora Landis . After all these years, no problems have happened.

Bob Jablonski