Need Help Dating a 1909-1910 Touring Body

[Tod Wirth, WI]

I am trying to help a friend who is looking at a 1909(?) touring. The car is an older restoration (50's?). The engine number is supposedly a 3000 number, but the photos he sent make it look like it could possibly be an 8000 number were the 8 was weakly stamped on the left side. The data plates on the front of the seat riser look like reproductions unfortunately.

Looking over the photos I see a quite a few 1910 parts on the car, including the rear axle. Now obviously those parts may have been changed, but they also could be an indication that this is a 8000 car (very early 1910 Model year) or a 3000 engine in a later car. Because of this, I am trying to narrow down the date range of the body if possible.

Now the two things, I can think of right now, that help to date a 1909-1910 body are the height of the rear door handles, and the number of carriage bolts holding the body to frame brackets, to the body. The outer rear door handles are in the higher position on this body. It is my understanding that that change was at around serial number 3000. As for the body bracket bolts, this body uses two at the front bracket and three at the middle bracket (at the front edge of the rear door).

Is it known at approximately what serial numbers the body bolts changed? What other body details might help in dating the body on this car?

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Tod

[Rich Bingham]

Should be fun being a "detective" for this car, Tod. I hope you will post some pictures of it when you can.

[Wayne Sheldon]

It was only the two (one right, one left) front body mounting brackets that used two bolts. The other four (middle and rear, two right, two left) were three bolt like nearly every other T through '25, from the very beginning of model T production. The change was made to three bolt on all six brackets around the beginning of 1910 model year on the touring car bodies (late 1909 calendar year). There appeared to be about two months when both two or three bolt brackets were being used in that front position on touring cars. There are several good solid survivor early 1910 model T touring cars with the two bolt brackets on the front (Including if I recall what I read, Tony Bowker's).
According to the number of original era photos showing them? The open roadsters apparently got the change to all three bolt brackets a little later, probably in early calendar 1910. There are a surprising number of photos of clearly 1910 roadsters with fully 1910 features, still having the two bolt front brackets. The crossover period was probably a bit longer on the roadsters also.

[Tod Wirth, WI]

Thanks for the post Wayne.

Please do not take offense, but I need to point out that there were two other body bracket bolt arrangements that I am aware of. The first was two bolts at the front bracket and two bolts at the middle bracket (just below the front edge of the rear door).

This design was used on the prototypes, and I want to say, about the first 500 cars. I will let someone with more knowledge in this area correct me.

The second arrangement was two bolts at the front bracket and four at the middle (in the shape of a "T").

This was used in the two lever era, but that is about all I know about this design.

Tod

[pete eastwood]

the prototype had the two bolt brackets , front , center & rear.
I know # 220 , 314 , & 714 , as well as other very early cars, have the two bolt at front & the four bolt at center & rear .
I believe this is because , to make the mounts more stable , the four bolt brackets replaced the two bolt brackets on the early bodies that were already built . When they replaced the two bolt brackets with the four bolt brackets , the two outer bolts were added & the existing center two bolts were retained. Further proof of this is in the fact that on original examples , on the four bolt mounts, the two outer bolts have slightly larger heads , which shows they were put in at a different time from a different source.
Once the early bodies that had this "retro fit" four bolt mount were used up, the three bolt mount was used in it's place.
I hope you were able to follow all this !!!

[Wayne Sheldon]

I will try to incorporate all that into my memory, such as it is!
I had heard that the prototype cars had the two additional two bolt brackets, but since none of them are known to exist, don't mention it. If I had read about the first few production cars having the two bolt brackets in the middle, I had forgotten it. I do recall reading some mention of the "T" shape bolt pattern, but not a clear explanation for it.
Thank you Pete E!
As I often say, I am still trying to learn this stuff!

[Tod Wirth, WI]

Thanks for the insight Pete.

Wayne, I am always learning, and will be until my body temperature and room temperature are the same. I find that learning something new (be it in my profession or my hobby) is what drives me. What frustrates me is the amount of stuff I end up learning..... again.

While I would love to have more detail about the early body brackets, I do also want to get back to the original question. Can anyone come up with any other details that could separate a production 1909 body from a 1910 model year body?

Tod

[Wayne Sheldon]

Tod W, A couple other things I think I know. You did mention the touring car's rear door handle position. Another thing is the data and serial number plates. They changed I think (something else I am not completely sure about?) a couple times during 1909 model year. The first few hundred cars had the pre-T (NRS) style serial number plate nailed to the front seat riser. Even if the plate is missing, you should be able to identify that by the nail holes provided the original wood is still mostly intact. Unfortunately, I do not know when they stopped using that early serial number plate. I have read several generalized opinions, but do not know exactly. I think also that the patent data plate was also changed during the year. I have heard and seen restoration photos of the data plate also on the seat riser, however, I do not know if that is correct or not.
I tried looking at a catalog, hoping to find some sort of timelines. However the catalog did not agree with a few things I am fairly sure about. So again, I am wondering myself.

This is a large part of why a few people with personal issues have hurt us all. There are several very knowledgeable people, people I respect a lot and I like to learn from, that are still out there, but seldom participate here anymore because of all the P!$$!#& matches between a couple people that for reasons unknown could not play nice.
Sorry for my drift/rant. Hopefully one of those that know so very much more than I do can hear about your good questions and post better answers than I can.