T transmission rebuild?

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Mr man
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T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:24 pm

I guess I need to rebuild my T tranny because my acsessory oil float was stuck in full and I ran it out of oil :roll: :?

I found a chipped gear tooth and all the band lining was tore up.

anyways, what is the procedure for pulling the motor and rebuilding the transmission, and how long should it take?

I have the ford service book that I will read as well, but is sometimes hard to understand.

I will talk to the club as well, but figured I should get some extra tips and viewpoints.

thanks in advance,

Carson

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:08 pm

The steps for pulling the engine should be in the service manual. Maybe some old person can translate it into modern English for you. :D

Mike Bender's videos should help: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ansmission.


You should also have the MTFCA Transmission book. It wouldn't hurt to have the other MTFCA books too. Sooner or later you're likely to need most of them. https://modeltstore.myshopify.com/produ ... ce-manuals
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Humblej » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:15 am

The oil for the trans is also the oil for the engine, so if you did run it dry and damaged the trans you may have similar damage to the engine, both will need to be rebuilt. I have torn model T engines apart and freshend them up by taking out bearing shims, honing cylinders, replacing rings and valves, etc, but in my 50 years of owning and working on a model T, I have never done a transmission rebuild. You ask the question what is the procedure to pull the engine and rebuild the transmission, that question tells me you are already over your head. Rebuilding a transmission requires special tools and reamers that for a one time job are going to be a prohibitively high overhead cost. Rebuilding an engine may require pouring new babbit bearings, again requiring special tooling and know how. You could buy all the special tooling and teach yourself model T engine and trans rebuilding, but that will run you several times the cost of having your engine and trans rebuilt by a professional shop. I would suggest you take the whole thing to a engine repair shop that knows model T's and have them do the entire engine and trans rebuild.

You may want to go through your car and remove and throw away any other gee wiz accessories that have been added over the years, as many of these things have a tendency to reduce vehicle reliability or safety.


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Altair » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:52 am

Rebuilding a T transmission isn't for everybody I have done four a 15, two 26s and one in between. Some care must be taken with the assembly clutch discs can be installed incorrectly, it is important to make a note or photos when disassembling. Some times in the life of a T transmission parts do get mixed cracked parts get replaced with different years sometimes ok and sometimes not. New bushings usually require to be honed or reamed to fit, it is important that these bushings are aligned correctly, honing and/or reaming are special procedures and should be done correctly with the required clearance, too tight can lead to premature failure. Pins should be pressed out and in with a hydraulic press in the correct direction, the flywheel can be damaged if done incorrectly. The assembly should be inspected for any excessive wear or cracks and if damaged should be replaced with the same year parts.
With reasonable mechanical skills the job can be done at home. The wiring of the bolts when finished requires some special attention and procedure, there are how to pictures available. I have reasonable mechanical skills but I still installed the clutch discs backwards in the 15 unit and had to disassemble correct the error and reassemble, also I had the wiring of the bolts incorrect and had to redo it. I did hone the bushings by hand to a good fit however I would recommend the job be done in a jig for trueness. Reaming is also an option but care must be taken. I haven't run these transmissions yet but I hope they run well.


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:12 am

You need the booklets published by the club which give you good do it yourself instructions and also the clearances for all the parts. Those booklets are "Engine" "Transmission" "Electrical System". The magneto is between the engine and transmission and very likely was damaged by loose parts such as gear chips etc which were attracted to the magnets.
There is a very active local club in the Las Vegas area and I am sure that you could find a mentor in the club who could walk you through the steps you need to remove the engine, transmission and magneto. Someone might even have a good working transmission he would be willing to sell you. Caution! If you do buy used parts, be sure to check them out for such things as cracked drums and clearances of bushings and condition of the gears and clutch disks. Also a good time to reline the bands.
I know at least one member of the local club. Harold Mann.
It is unfortunate that this happened during the COVID pandemic and many of the members are older persons, so physical contact is limited at this time.
Anyway, the club members will know of reliable rebuilders or those who can help you with the machine work if you are able to do some of the disassembly and assembly work yourself or work with you on what you can do.
You didn't state what year car you have and some transmission changes were made over the years so you need the right parts to fit your car. Also the bodies were different and so some of the disassembly will be different depending on your body type. and whether or not you have a starter and even the location of your coil box.
Norm

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by jsaylor » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:23 am

The engine and transmission come out as a unit. As mentioned the Model T has one oil sump for both. Check with your local club members and get some help. Here is Sacramento we have what we call "Awful Waffle Day." We meet at the home of the member needing help. We start out the morning with waffles, pancakes and eggs, usually cooked in the shop or garage. The we dive into the project. We learn from each other and have fun at the same time. But.. with COVID issues might have to wait until summer. And don't use those auxiliary oil level devices. Its too easy for them to plug up and give you a false sense of security.

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:19 pm

Rebuilding a transmission requires special tools and reamers that for a one time job are going to be a prohibitively high overhead cost.

If you're lucky your local T club may have the tools to borrow, and somebody in the club may have them and be willing to help.


I found a chipped gear tooth and all the band lining was tore up.

Band lining torn up indicates a cracked or broken drum, so you will probably need to replace at least one of those. An original drum may be OK for a car that isn't driven much, but if you intend to use the car a lot it's probably a good investment to get one of Dave Nolting's new drums. Many original hundred-year-old drums have cracks, sometimes unseen, that can only get worse until the drum goes to pieces. VOE


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One of Dave's drums will cost a lot more than an original, but it won't do this to you.


I agree with a couple of of Jeff's comments.

1 "...if you did run it dry and damaged the trans you may have similar damage to the engine..."

2 "Gee whiz" accessories are often counterproductive. If you want something to help you check your oil level, ditch the float thing that betrayed you and DON'T get a brass & glass sight gauge. The only accessory I deem safe for that job is this:
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Obviously, you keep the petcocks closed and only open them to check the oil level.

I believe you're facing some work that's best done by somebody with knowledge and experience. The ideal thing would be to have the job done by an experienced Model T specialist who is willing to let you help and learn. You can certainly pull the engine and reinstall it on your own, but I would get some experienced help between the former and the latter.
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:18 pm

so, last night I started tearing the T apart to pull the engine. I figured id better open the inspection plate on the oil pan and take a little look inside to see what damage I'm facing. well, to my surprise, everything to my knowledge looks good. the tie rods on the crankshaft look pretty great and have only slight side-to side play. no up and down, witch I assume is good. there is no sighs of overheating and the timing gears at the front of the motor look to be in great shape. no meatal shreds to be found and cylinder walls are very smooth. there is still oil residue on everything and the dips in the oil pan inspection plate were full of oil. the camshaft looks good too. nothing is obviously warped or damaged at all. as I remember, driving home there was not much noise coming from the transmission or engine that I noticed. no knocking, grinding, pinging or anything out of the ordinary. the motor wasn't trying to seize up or bog down. there was no "hot" smell, however, the hogs head was too hot to touch, almost as hot as the exhaust pipe. I never actually drained the oil to see how much was left, I'm having some trouble getting the drain plug off. I just know it was below the bottom petcock. I think tonight ill start to remove the hogs head and see the damage in the transmission and how bad it is. do you guys think I still need a full engine rebuild or just the transmission?

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:42 am

From your description the engine may be OK and the transmission probably is not. At this point I would leave the engine alone and pull the hogshead to see what it's hiding. That should tell you whether you need to remove the pan and replace any transmission parts. I would also have an experienced Model T person evaluate the engine and transmission to see what's needed.
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:49 pm

How big a chip are we talking about? Can you post a photo of the chipped gear tooth?


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:23 am

ok, I got the hogs head off last night, finally. it took me an hour and a half but i did it!

the drums are loose and have a good amount of play in them, about enough to stick a butter knife in-between. the triple gears look fine with only slight play in all but one, which rocks side to side with about a fourth inch movement. i believe the tooth came from a drum, its a little less than an inch long. could this be possible? the flywheel is torn up in some places as well. it looks like the cotton brake band got obliterated and is in clumps inside the engine and transmission. drums are not discolored and are still smooth, except the brake drum, which has grooves in it. i didn't see any cracks. there is still a slight amount of oil in the pan.
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:28 am

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:32 am

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:20 pm

That gear tooth is a problem. Time to pull the engine out.

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:36 pm

I'm in the process of putting mine back together. If you want to see what's involved take a look. I've got pictures and video as well. Here is the link.

viewtopic.php?t=9508

Just keep in mind that you are dealing with a 100 year old car and most of the parts are old, cracked, and tired you know like some of the owners.

Good luck and please post so we can all see how you are making out.

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:58 pm

Clearly someone has been in there - aluminum pistons, oil dippers, etc. Take notice of the fiber cam gear - unless you can verify it's "an era" macerated one, you might consider replacing that with an original steel or aluminum gear to prevent a catastrophic failure resulting in "found on road dead" it won't take long for the generator to remove some teeth !

The bands appear to be late production Scandinavia "tar babies" - not the best on the market IMO. Can't distinguish what the metal chunk is - did you verify it was a triple gear tooth or ???

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:05 pm

The first photo of "the chunk" appears to have a gear tooth mark - interesting !

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:07 pm

the triple gears look fine with only slight play in all but one, which rocks side to side with about a fourth inch movement.

That by itself demands pulling the engine, taking off the pan, and removing the transmission. I expect the wobbly triple gear is seized and has wrecked the flywheel. I don't recognize the "tooth", but I suspect it may be a piece of drum and was part of chewing up that band lining. The engine may be perfectly OK except for needing all the band debris cleaned out of it, but you will at least need to pull the oil tube for a thorough cleaning. Diagnosing an engine's condition from photos is beyond me. I would want an experienced Model T specialist to inspect it.

If that is indeed a fiber timing gear, in my book there's no might consider about it. Don't gamble that it may be OK. Get rid of it. Replace it with original steel, new aluminum, or new bronze. I believe bronze is best.


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Allan » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:16 pm

If the metal piece is a gear tooth, it's not from the triple gears. The rule shows it to be almost 3/4" wide, wider than the teeth on even the earlier tree piece gears and the driven gear. The transmission needs to be stripped to investigate.

Allan from down under.


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:38 pm

Pretty sure it's a tooth from one of the drum gears, (sun gears).

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:25 pm

Carson, Super Job on the photos and description.

Proud of you! Let me know if you need parts! Big Discount for the kid! LOL

Hank


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:56 am

Thanks Hank, I might have to take you up on that offer!!


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:01 am

ok, I'm going to borrow the clubs engine jack today, and hopefully pull the engine this afternoon and really get going somewhere. I'm still not totally sure how to disconnect the universal joint, however. could someone tell me how that works?

Thanks,
Carson


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:01 am

ok, I'm going to borrow the clubs engine jack today, and hopefully pull the engine this afternoon and really get going somewhere. I'm still not totally sure how to disconnect the universal joint, however. could someone tell me how that works?

Thanks,
Carson


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:22 am

Mr man wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:01 am
ok, I'm going to borrow the clubs engine jack today, and hopefully pull the engine this afternoon and really get going somewhere. I'm still not totally sure how to disconnect the universal joint, however. could someone tell me how that works?

Thanks,
Carson
Just remove the four bolts that attach the drive shaft housing to the transmission and the u joint will slip out of the transmission as you pull the engine out.

Stephen


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:26 am

great! thanks Stephen

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:45 pm

Don't forget to drop the wishbone. :)
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by John Warren » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:05 pm

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I stoppedby Carsons, this is where the transmission failed. Low drum gear.
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:51 pm

Thanks John for helping that young man out! You are now a hero.

Hank

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by John Warren » Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:00 pm

Thanks Hank, just trying to do my part of paying forward.
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by jab35 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:58 am

This would make an excellent 'human interest' story for the Vintage Ford. Lot's of people helping and solving a technical model t challenge, and paying forward to the new generation. Thanks for sharing, jb


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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:23 am

thanks john,

by the way, does anyone know if I need to remove the steering column to remove the engine? or can the motor be maneuvered around it?

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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:59 am

I don't remove it all the way, but I undo it at the bottom and at the firewall and set the steering wheel back on the seat. I've never tried it with the column in place because it looks to me like it would be more hassle than it's worth. See Pages 50-52 in the Service Manual.

As you remove the various nuts and bolts it's a good idea to put them in little bags or envelopes and label where they go. Eventually maybe you won't need to do that, but the first few times before you learn to recognize everything it will simplify reassembly.
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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by DanTreace » Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:57 pm

Like Jeff posted, pull the steering column up and behind the dash, you need that space at the lower frame to pull the motor. Lots of little stuff to remove, plug and gen, starter wiring, drain the rad, and remove it with the hoses attached to the radiator, by removing the upper and lower outlets. Remove the fan and timer with wires. And remove the metal hood shelves, makes it easier to first slide the motor out with the pan ears gliding on the frame rail. A bit of grease on the frame rails too helps the slide, both out and back in.

Remove the 4 bolts at the u-joint, and remove the 4 bolts holding the engine to the frame sides, plus the cap on the motor/spring mount. Lastly, don't forget that darn wishbone, that has hung up a lot of engine pulls ;)




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Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by Mr man » Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:19 pm

Awesome! thanks Steve and Dan.

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Last Name: Warren
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14 Roadster, 25 Pickup , 26 Canadian Touring , and a 24-28 TA race car
Location: Henderson, Nevada

Re: T transmission rebuild?

Post by John Warren » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:37 pm

This is Carson's transmission drums. The gear on the low drum is galded and broken and the bushing is scored and loose. I'm thinking not enough clearance when installed.
20210221_093625.jpg
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24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P

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