1916 Ford Landaulette & Town Car

[Teamcsa]

Hi,
From next month, we will begin work on the 1916 Model T town car. I request some one to give me the following information just for my curiosity.

1)What is the difference between the Model T laundaulet & Model T Town car?

2) I found out that only 802 Model T town cars were made. Any idea, approximately, how many are surviving?

I have attached a picture of the Model T Town car that we will begin to restore. This picture was taken when the Town car was almost new.

Thanks in advance
Ananth

[Humblej]

A landaulet is a town car that has no roof over the driver. Landaulets were only available in 1909.
Town cars are very rare, please research thoroughly befor and during your restoration to get it right, and more importantly, to do no harm.

[Allan]

Anath, that is a wonderful old car and the town cars are really rare. When you say 'almost new' you are most likely correct, but it already has some later model updates. Brass radiator cars did not have the curved,crowned front front mudguards/fenders shown. Nor did they usually have acetylene headlights, so there have been some alterations already by the time the photo was taken.

As advised, take many photographs as you do the restoration. They will be invaluable in putting things back together and will provide good record of the car for others to reference.

Enjoy your project and ask many questions as you go. We'd all love to help.

Allan from down under.

[Scott_Conger]

Allan

you're certainly right with the body details. Also, the fact that it is sitting next to a T that is at least 7 years newer, gives us some idea of relative age. I think Ananth is correct in the general sense of it being nearly new, and it's neat to have such an early picture of the exact car being restored, but the photo gives limited details for a correct restoration to "as built".

[ewdysar]

Since the cars in the photo are both right hand drive, and the attire of the people in the photo seem to match Anath’s profile location in India, it raises the question of where the car may have been built. Does anyone know if there was a early Ford distribution channel in India or if this car would have been a one-off import? It seems to me that logistically, Australia would be closest, but politically, it probably would have come from Britain.

Keep crankin’
Eric

[Kerry]

I can't put my hands on it right now as I'm packed for a house shift but by memory in and old publication I have, India was Fords biggest British customer pre T, I'm sure T's continued to end up there as well for the British gentry in residence.

[E THOMAS]

Ananth:

This is a great and very historical car, I look forward to seeing the restoration of it take place on these pages. This forum has almost boundless enthusiasm, knowledge and willingness to share.. You will likely need some parts from the USA too.

When it is finished, the Ford Town Car should be a stunning piece of History, For India and our Model T global community.

I hope the project goes smoothly.

[Teamcsa]

Thanks everyone, who have responded to my post yesterday. This is very encouraging. My company based in India has restored 70 cars in the last 12 years since inception. We have also restored very rare cars such as a 1914 Benz, which is considered one among the three surviving in the World. We are currently completing the restoration of a Ford Model T Truck. As soon as the restoration is over, which will be sometime next week, I shall post pictures.

If anyone is interested, I request them to visit my company website www.teamcsa.in

My research also shows that the acetylene / Carbide brass lamps do not pertain to this 1916 Town car. For the information of all of you, quiet a few Model Ts were imported into India. There were distributors in the 4 major Indian cities. Most of these Ford Ts imported into India were built in Canada.

Now coming back to the Model T Town Car, from the documents of the car I find the year is 1916. I have a question. Did this 1916 Town car originally have brass grille with brass electric lamps or did they have painted grille with painted head lamps?

I have attached two different pictures of a 1916 Model T Town car taken from the internet. One has brass grille / headlamps and the other has painted grille / head lamps. Hence I request clarification from the members of the forum.

[Kerry]

1916 would be in-between the 2 photo's you have posted, 16 is like the bottom one, which is a 1915. 16 is minus the brass head light rims and the brass side/tail light rims, they are painted black steel and also the hood would be fluted as well.

[Sarikatime]

In the picture of the 16 towcar you show as it looked a hundred years ago, there is a brass radiator and gas headlights. It may have been a late 15 or early 16 model but by the time it was transported to India some months later it may have been considered a new 1916 model. Restore it to match the picture which is documenting its history and proof of existence a hundred years ago. Keep things simple and not put doubt in anyone’s mind and make it look different than what documentation of existence provides. Just my two cents. Frank

[Scott_Conger]

I would procede with caution before anyone decides to ditch the gas headlights if this is a '16. Canadian cars came with gas headlights into '15. I think for Indian exports, baring factory records refuting or codifying permutations, I would suggest that we in the US in the modern age cannot with authority state that this automobile should have come with electric lights. Why would it be backdated with gas at such an early stage of it's life? It is a really interesting car!

A study of the engine, Serial Number, hog's head, and other details should be performed to determine if this is in fact a '16...I suspect it is a '15 updated with later fenders. It's an interesting combination and a Towncar likely being unique or nearly unique, in any form, in India, a restoration back to the condition as photographed Ca. 1924+ might be appropriate in this instance. If it was in the US, and knowing exactly how it would have been delivered, a restoration to "original" would be more appropriate, and the later fenders would be removed. It's a conundrum that will have to be worked out by the restoration team based on what they wish to end up with.

[Teamcsa]

I thank all those who responded to my post regarding the 1916 Town Car.

First, I wish to assure that our restoration is absolutely original. Please visit my company's website www.teamcsa.in. We have done the impossible. Therefore, we are confident that this town car will be restored well & will be original

But, right now, I have no idea what is original. Hence, can anyone help me with a picture of a well restored 1916 town car? If that is not possible,I request the following clarifications:

1) Did the 1916 have acetlyene-carbide head lamps or electric lamps? {Picture of the car as it came to us shows electric head lamps-painted.

2) Was the radiator cowl of brass or steel? {Picture of the car as it came to us, shows a painted radiator surround}.

3) What is the original profile of the fenders? Picture attached of the car as it came to our workshop. Is the profile of the fender as in the picture correct?

[Kerry]

Teamcsa,
Will need more photo's of this T, for what can be seen on the one you have posted, shows no signs of ever being a 1916, 1923/4 maybe.

[D Stroud]

From here, it looks to be a '24 or 25. High radiator and firewall/cowl, splash shield below the radiator with the matching lips on the fenders. Dave

[Michael Paul]

Looks like a great car to restore! I found this 1924 town car photo for comparison.

[Humblej]

Ananth,
You have what looks like the remains of what could be a 1915, 1916, 1917, or 1918 town car body that has been updated over the years with a later cowl / firewall, fenders, and chassis parts from later years model T's, as well as some non model T parts. Ford did not make town cars after 1918, so later year parts no matter how significant, does not make the town car a later year car. If the car you have is he one in the first picture you posted, then I would restore it to that configuration, a 1915-16 with gas headlamps and 1917 fenders.

[Scott_Conger]

I was going to say "OOOOPS!!" when I saw the actual car. I think Jeff is completely correct. Lots of body/cowl/hood/radiator/more, work occured after the early picture was taken. And I agree as to how "I" would restore it to...back to the picture. That car is like so many Ts in that like kids, it "grew up".

[Kerry]

If looked at more closely for what can be seen on that one photo, restoring it as a 16 is way off, it is all later running gear, starter, high head, late engine mount, spring, perches, wish bone, steering wheel and even a 26/27 hogs head. Like I said, need more photo's. diff, engine block etc.
As it stands it's all late T, so what needs to be worked out going by the first photo of it when newer. was it just a brass radiator and hood put on it or the tub/rear body built on a 24? T??

[Scott_Conger]

Kerry

you got me studying. I don't think this is the same car. I don't see any way to swap cowls low/high and keep any amount of forward side sheetmetal. The modern picture shows a curved stiffener at the rear of the driver's cab that doesn't exist in the original as well as other details which don't "line up". You're right about hog's head and other details I had missed. The body and all running gear details really appears to be fundamentally different, though with similar details which are typical of a towncar, but I am believing now that the two photos are of different cars. Too bad.

[Sarikatime]

Scott, you are on to something. The car to be restored is a completely different car. Someone has combined a touring and a centerdoor and a much later model than the one hundred year old picture at the top of this conversation. Too many things are from a newer model, there is a starter, under axle wishbone and spring perch, no tapered springs, metal firewall and on and on. It should be restored to, and with parts existing, to what is on the car. Towncars were all custom built anyway and whatever will be the finished product will be beautiful and if they could find some wood wheels it will be a beautiful car. Frank

[Allan]

Anath, the car in your first photo is not the same car as the one in your second. As others have pointed out, the second car shown as the car you have to restore is much later than 1916. It is at least a 1923 model, by which time Ford were no longer producing towncars. So your project is a custom build, perhaps a one-off. This means you have carte blanche on the body work as there may well be nothing quite like it. It is a high radiator car and would have had a black radiator shell from the factory. The fenders, hood, radiator shell apron all point to a 1923-25 model, and it should be restored as such. Too much of it is not the 1916? car in the first photo.
The wheels are interesting. They look like light truck wheels. They are likely to be a much later replacement, possibly to overcome the lack of supply of the correct size tyres later in its life. That is one thing I would certainly correct.

Allan from down under.

[Michael Paul]

Found a couple more photos that might be helpful. The one looks to be a 1924 era conversion, custom body.

[Michael Paul]

One more.....

[George Mills]

Ananth,

You really should find a serial number and post it here...that will get the ball rolling in so many directions...

Yet, you seem to wish to do a faithful restoration, similar to the picture supplied, and to have it 1916 but with earlier light buckets?

If so, I would suggest you contact Susan at MTFCA as they may have resale issues available?...because...

One of my favorite issues of all time was Volume 15, No. 2, and I still keep it out of the pile and off to the side.

The feature of the month was restoring 1914 'towncars' and there were 18 pages of details. You might find it an interesting read.