MTFCA Forum

I was going to adjust the three clutch screws in the transmission. I jacked up the left rear wheel and placed the tranny in neutral. With the transmission in neutral the rear wheel will not turn. The parking brake is definitely not set. It doesn't make any difference what position the lever is in the wheel won't turn. Should it?

Push the hand brake / clutch lever forward, that will make the wheel turn when you hand crank.

I do understand that Dan, The issue is that there is a tremendous amount of drag on the engine when cranking in neutral. In fact I cannot hand crank it, and I have hand-cranked many other Ts. With the lever in neutral I can turn the raised wheel with some serious effort. With the plugs out and the wheel jacked up in neutral the engine will hand crank just fine. What I'm really looking for is this: do you think I'm on the right track adjusting the clutch screws. I don't want to pull those cotter pins unless I have to. I have nightmares about dropping one.

Check your band adjustments, maybe they are too tight.

Hope this Helps,

Hank

With the plugs out and the wheel jacked up in neutral the engine will hand crank just fine.

Well you have good compression then! Sometimes hard to hand crank with lever forward if compression is good.

Most times when adj. the clutch in a starter T, its easy to just push with the palm on the foot starter button. I leave the T on a level clear driveway, as it will roll forward that way. Just a few pushes to roll the motor over to present the next lever screw. The handbrake/clutch lever forward so that the drums revolve with the driving plate the fingers are mounted on.


As Hank posted, check your band tightness if too hard to hand crank over.

Also, what determination did you do to know the clutch needs adjustment? Is the engine racing when you climb a hill, does the T lack fast going into high from low? A road test I do is to run up in high about 15mph, then close throttle, depress the clutch pedal to 'neutral', then quick release the pedal, applying full throttle. The T should move out, if it takes a while to run up to speed, that can be a slipping clutch symptom.

Are you trying to say that you have no neutral?

No. It's just unbelievably hard to hand crank.

Maybe start by jacking up both sides, remove the parking brake rods and see how both wheels turn. If one or both feel like they are dragging then pull the wheel(s) and have a look see. Reattach the rods and check again, adjust as needed. Then check the bands to make sure they are not dragging. If the bands or parking brakes are not dragging then it could be the clutch pack. Tabs/bosses in the brake drum could have grooves worn in them not allowing the disks to release.
Something is dragging someplace. Even with just one wheel off the ground, parking brake lever horizontal or all the way forward, should not be hard to crank. With a good engine, stiff maybe, but not hard.
How fresh is the engine and have the rods been taken up lately?

To keep from dropping the cotter pins, run a length of dental floss through the pin and tie the ends. I usually loop it around my little finger. Dental floss comes in handy. It keep a package in my tool box.

When you jack up one rear wheel, does the hand crank turn easier than it does with the car in neutral and both wheels on the ground? It should because there is always some drag on the clutch disks when the wheels are on the ground. To test your neutral, on a level surface, pull the parking brake lever to the neutral position which is straight up or sometimes a bit forward of straight up. With the car in neutral and the parking brake off, and you turn the crank, the car should NOT move. If it does move one of three things is at fault. 1. The clutch is not released. 2. the low band is dragging. 3. If it moves backward, the reverse band is dragging. When it is in neutral on level ground, you should be able to push the car without turning the engine. Note, it is a bit hard to push because of the normal drag on clutch disks.
The other test of the clutch would be whether it is operating in high gear. This has been noted above. When you get up to around 15 mph in low, quickly shift into high. After the shift pull the throttle down. The engine should chug along until you reach about 25 mph. It gradually picks up speed as the speed of the car increases. If you are in high and you increase the throttle, if the engine races but the car doesn't pick up speed, your clutch is weak. Could be caused by worn out clutch, sticking disks inside the clutch drum or adjustment.
Other posts have described how to make clutch adjustments. The club booklet "Transmission" is a very good do it yourself manual which describes all the features and adjustments of the clutch. Well worth the purchase price.
Norm

Thanks for all of the responses guys. I'll try Norman's suggestions about hand cranking today.

When hand cranking in neutral the car does not move significantly and there is virtually no difference in the cranking effort with the rear wheel jacked up or on the ground. The starter also has a tough time cranking the engine.

I didn't see whether this was addressed, so will ask a few questions. Is this a new problem? Has the engine recently been overhauled or rebuilt? Do you have non stock parts such as a high compression head or overhead valve head? Is the stroke of the engine altered from Ford Spec?
The reason I ask these questions is because any of these things can cause the engine to be tighter than normal for a Model T. If the engine is near stock and has been recently worked on, you can try pulling the car (attatch the strap or rope to the frame or the spring where it attaches to the axle). Pull in high gear with ignition on and gas valve open. As soon as the engine starts, wave or honk the horn as a signal to the puller to stop. Keep the T engine running long enough to warm up at fast idle. Then if it has not been done before re-torque the head bolts. Note: if an aluminum head let the engine cool off before you check the torque, but if an iron head, torque while still hot. Usually after it has first been started and run for a few minutes it will loosen enough to be able to hand crank or use the starter.
If you have many modifications to the engine, which raise the compression, you might just have to strengthen your arm and live with it.
Another problem, even if the engine is stock would be leaving the parking brake on when parked for a long time. This can cause the oil to work in between the clutch disks and if you are using a heavy oil such as sae 40 which is not a multi grade oil, the oil can become thick and cause the disks to drag. If you park with the brake lever forward and then pull back just before you attempt to start the car It might be easier to crank. Normally on a flat surface such as a garage, there is enough friction when in high gear that the car will not roll, however, if on a hill be sure to chock the wheels.
Norm

It has been pointed out to me that I have not provided some essential background information, so here goes: This is a running, non-restored '27 touring car. To the best of my knowledge, the last time the engine was disassembled was in 1927 at the Ford factory. It runs really well, has good power (for a model T) and uses no oil. The only issue is it's extremely hard to crank (either by me or by the starter). It does not creep significantly when being cranked in neutral, it doesn't creep significantly when running with the low-high pedal in the middle position. The only issue is very hard cranking.

With the parking brake on, have someone try holding the left pedal into the neutral position and then try the starter or crank. If it cranks easier, the problem is in the neutral adjustment of the parking lever. Also if it is in neutral or in high gear you jack up both rear wheels at the same time, does it crank any easier? If so, it is something dragging either the clutch or the bands.
Norm

What oil are you using? Temperate should not be a factor living in Florida, but if too heavy could be a drag.
About the starter; have you checked the grounds, cleaned the terminals, done a load test on the battery?
When was the starter last serviced, cleaned or looked at?
If the terminal is coming loose from it connection would be a big draw and slow it down.
No matter how the clutch is adjusted, until things warm up, Model T's for the most part when using the steel disk, will have some creep. That is why the parking brake is set. More so if using a straight weight oil.

Mark, 10W30. I have no idea when the starter was last serviced, but as the engine cranks so hard by hand, I don't believe the starter is the issue. The connections have all been checked and the battery is new and fully charged.

Without making any adjustments; trans cover and key off, parking brake lever in just the upright position. What do the drums do when you hit the starter? What does the car do? Really wants to roll or sorta wants to roll?
With the parking brake lever pulled back or in upright position, are the 3 clutch fingers loose? Can you freely move them in and out? If they don't, ether the adjusting screws are turned in too far or you need to adjust the linkage and bolt that rides on the cam for free neutral.
Turning the adjusting screws in increases pressure when the clutch is released, turning out decreases pressure when clutch is released. If the engine has not been rebuilt and rods not taken up lately, that should rule the engine itself out.
See if backing the bands off even more helps. Looking at the bands, can you see the ends of the linings?

Thanks for the reply Mark. I'll check in the next couple of days.