Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

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Sean B
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Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Sean B » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:02 pm

I’m looking at a chassis that has an engine in it that supposedly was bored .030 over. It was rebuilt 30 years ago and never ran. Supposedly can’t be turned by hand, but says this....
Quote;
“ The guy I bought it from turned it over with a screw driver with the starter pulled.”

Thoughts?
Last edited by Sean B on Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TWrenn
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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by TWrenn » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:22 pm

Don't quote me, but I think .060 is the "favored max". I think some will go .080, but they say that's risky. When I had a tired
engine needing .080, my expert rebuilder opted for re-sleeving. Turned out good.

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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:34 pm

I believe most vendors sell pistons up to .080 oversized but Egge has some .125 oversized. I think .060 is a safe bet but over .080 is risky.
My opinion.
Rich
When did I do that?


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Sean B » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:40 pm

I corrected the bore to .030 not .30


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:43 pm

There’s plenty of old “hot” engines out there running Model A pistons (.125” over). Anything at .080” or less is OK with me. But if you’ve got a motor with heavy rust in the water jacket... sleeves might be a better option

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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by henryford2 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:00 pm

Here's one at .100 over.
IMG_2516.jpg


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Joe Bell » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:41 pm

The problem years ago with anything over .060 was head gasket issues, since then the pistons are now radiused on the out side edge to prevent pitons from hitting head gasket. But with all that being said I would rather not go over .060, the walls get thin and more chance of cracks from exhaust into cylinder walls. Just my thoughts!


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Joe Bell » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:43 pm

I would pull that chassis with out plugs in it around the yard, add oil into the cylinders and make sure oil is in the engine, you have nothing to loose by trying it, I would push it back wards first that tends to knock them loose first.


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Kerry » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:10 pm

If I was buying it, it would be with the full intent on pulling it apart and checking all, over the years I've gone through engines for club members that have been so-called reconditioned. It can be a real eye opener on some of the stuff ups found or the BS a buyer has been told.


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by ModelTWoods » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:13 pm

I have a 1926 block, rebuilt by Kevin Prus, that is .060 over that I plan to use. I, also, have a 1927 block that used a vaporizer carb (web not punched out for throttle rod between cylinders 2 and 3) that was rebuilt by Ross Lilliker. The 1927 block, apparently had been used as a stationary engine during its lifetime and had more than .080 wear. It has been sleeved back to standard. It will be my spare. I have a third 1926-27 block which also must have been a stationary engine, and like the vaporizer block, has a tremendous amount of wear. I can put a new .060 piston in each cylinder bore and play "Dixie" by tapping the piston against the cylinder walls. It will have to be sleeved, also.

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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Hap_Tucker » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:24 pm

Sean,
It was rebuilt 30 years ago and never ran. Supposedly can’t be turned by hand, but says this....
Quote;
“ The guy I bought it from turned it over with a screw driver with the starter pulled.”
If it was bored and new pistons and rings put in and new Babbitt in the rods and main bearings it would be tight when it was rebuilt. If they are trying to turn it just using their hand on the crankshaft pulley -- that is not unusual. They probably would not have been able to do that. And if they were trying to put their hand on the crankshaft pulley to turn it - they probably would not have been able to do that after the rods and pistons were installed and the head was still off. Add the head onto the engine and it would be even harder to turn over with the spark plugs installed.

Since they said they could turn the engine over by using a screw driver with the starter pulled -- it sounds like it has the engine pan and hogs head installed. Does it have the hand crank installed in the engine pan? If they could turn it with the screw driver through the starter hole I would think they could turn it over with the hand crank. But the engine would need to be secured in a stand, a car frame, or oil drained and turn on the side so the engine block would not rotate.

You should be able to remove the spark plugs and shine a small flash light inside the spark plug hole. Looking in you should be able to see the new never run aluminum piston. They may all be at the 1/2 point in which case -- no you probably won't be able to see them. But hopefully 2 of them will be up and you can see them from an angle. The valves should also look clean and not covered with carbon.


An original cast iron piston will also not shine back at you much. And unless someone is rebuilding an engine to run in the Montana 500 (which requires the contestants to use the original cast iron style pistons) there is no reason I would recommend someone to use the heavier original cast iron style pistons. Looking at the 2000 Lang's catalog they did not offer any cast iron pistons. Same for the 1990 Synder's T section. And the 1977 Obsolete Ford Parts Inc in Oklahoma City. They all offered Rings for the cast iron piston but none of them listed cast iron pistons for sale. So if it was rebuilt in 1990 -- it would have most likely had new aluminum pistons installed. As others previously stated -- sometimes people will say it was rebuilt and they cleaned the carbon off the valves, pistons, and the cylinder head, ground the valves, adjusted the bearing clearance and put it back together again. That is not what I would call a totally rebuilt engine but is it a coke, a cola, a Coco-Cola, soda etc.?

If you pull the inspection plate on the transmission the bands should look new (OK - that assumes if you went to the trouble to pull the engine to rebuild it, you would put new bands in at the same time. But for sure they shouldn't look really worn.

If you drop the lower engine inspection plate you should be able to see if there are shims left on the rod bearings, as well as the center main bearing should be easy to see. While there be sure the cotter pins are installed or some sort of locking nut etc. was used.

Finally for a rebuilt engine that has been sitting for 30 years -- it could easily have a stuck valve. They can usually be pushed back down through the spark plug hole unless there is a lot of rust causing it to stick.

As former President Regan would say about the Soviets -- "Trust, but verify." Of if the engine is at a low enough price that you can purchase it as a rebuildable core then you don't have to check all that. But when you get it you will need to check it so if possible check it before you decide purchase it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Sean B » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:41 pm

Thanks for all the info everyone. It is appreciated.
The guy selling it is going to send me pictures with the head off. I suppose that is better than nothing.
It’s not local to me so I have to go by his word and hopefully decent pictures.

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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by kelly mt » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:08 pm

I'm running 0.080" over bore on one of my T's. No problem except if you run a high compression head. I had to remove material from the head in every combustion chamber. Not a lot but with a no head gasket clearance check the pistons hit. BTW, I used aluminum flat top pistons.


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by jiminbartow » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:13 pm

If it was bored and rebuilt, but never run, cylinders probably look pretty good and need nothing more than being honed, if that. If never turned over for 30 years, the cylinders might have dried out and might have a little surface rust that is just rough enough to impede the rings. Minor surface rust can be smoothed with a honer and it is not necessary to rebore another .020 or .030 over. I am hoping you are pleasantly surprised and the cylinders look fine.

You can probably break it loose by: 1. Making sure it has oil, 2. Remove the head and squirt oil into each cylinder, 3. Disconnect the rear brake drums and pull the emergency brake lever to the rear, putting the transmission in neutral, 4. Block the rear wheels, 5. Jack the front axle, 6. Position the crank at 8:00 in the ratchet, 7. Put a cinderblock under the crank and 8. Lower the jack until the crank is resting on the cinderblock with the wheels still off the ground. The crank should gradually turn clockwise and by morning, the crank should be at 12:00. Keep doing this until you can turn it by hand.

If this technique does not move the engine, there may be something more serious that you will only be able to find, by tearing it down and rebuilding it, which, after 30 years, might not be a bad idea. Good luck. Jim Patrick


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Tbuff23 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:38 pm

My T is bored out to 0.060 it has aluminum pistons it is an earlier rebuild with not to many miles on it. I was looking at getting a high compression head Will it fit or will I run into trouble trying to install the head.
Thanks,

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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:01 am

Along with Hap's Reagan quote I'll offer an old army saying: Believe nothing you hear and about half of what you see. That includes "rebuilt", especially decades ago.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by greenacres36 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:00 am

My car is .060 over. I just put a Prus head on with no modification. Doesn’t hit.


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Allan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:08 am

Mark, there can be slight problems with some alumimium high compression heads, but nothing that I know of that can't be worked around when fitting them. With Z heads sometimes there needs to be a little removed around some combustion chambers so that the pistons have clearance. The best bet is to fit the head with no gasket and hand crank it so check that there is no evidence of the pistons striking the head. If you find you have problems when you remove it, the problem area/s will show up as register marks on the head face. Address these and refit to check your work. If all is OK, proceed to fit the head with the gasket. Do this with two of the pistons at the top of the stroke so you can see that the gasket is positioned well. Check again by hand cranking once you have tensioned the head.

I have never had any fitting problems with the Prus heads, which seem to be more consistent in the combustion chamber shape/sizing.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by TonyB » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:50 am

Against my advice Lucky Howard Genrich bored Lucky #7 out to 0.125” on his last rebuild and it worked. I said he was lucky and Howard agreed. By the way that’s why Egge have that size pistons😊
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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by RGould1910 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:02 pm

Just to continue the discussion about pistons hitting the head, I have a .080 os bore and my pistons were hitting the Ricardo head I installed. Rather than remove stock from the head, I beveled the alum pistons. Worked great.
20191109_085552.jpg


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by Tbuff23 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:34 pm

The Prus head is what I am looking at to install. If I have to remove stock from the head won’t that change the compression of the head.
Thanks,

Mark


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Re: Max a T engine can be bored? And other questions

Post by StanHowe » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:27 am

I think it depends on what you are going to do with the engine.

1. Blocks are cheap.

2. What is the worst thing that can happen?

3. Go through the side of the cylinder boring it?? I doubt it but if you do you're not out much. I have my own boring bar and piles of blocks. Dave Huson would give you all you wanted if you would pick them up. Doesn't cost me anything but time to bore one. Uptown is $40 a hole.

Even if you are paying to have it bored you're not out all that much if you have to start over or sleeve it.

4. You wanna go fast or be dependable? If I wanted to go fast I'd go .080 over or .125 over. 125 is .045 bigger than .080 or .0225 on each side of the piston. A little thicker than your thumbnail.

If you want to be dependable go .030. No hot cam, no big carb, no scat crank, 35 mph all day long and sleep well at night.

5. Speed and power cost money. Pays yer money and makes yer choice.

The speedster engine setting under my bench is .080. Wish it was .125.

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