MTFCA Forum

On one of the FB Model T pages I mentioned that the green and blue cars were so dark that in the shade they looked black. Then somebody said, "Red too." I doubt that, but I wonder if the fire engine red we see on 1909 cars today is close to the real deal. Are any of the surviving 1909-1910 red cars still wearing their original paint (varnish)?

The Fords in this photo don't look all that dark to me.

I'm sure the photograph has changed. I'm not sure this proves anything but here it is for consideration.

I have spent most of my adult life working with paint, pigments, and the formulations thereof, mostly from the point of view of fine art applications and authentic replications of materials and methods that were concurrent in the carriage and wagon trade c. 1880s-1920s. No matter. Anyone with an opinion is free to contradict anything I might offer on the subject. There. Venting completed.

To answer your question in the simplest terms, Steve, first, any well-preserved example of "red" applied to a Model T body member 111 years ago or so, would definitely NOT look as it did when new if brought to light today. It would appear darker and considerably yellowed. The "near black" opinions regarding greens and blues stem from examination of well-aged samples; ergo, I feel you are correct in assuming those colors appeared much lighter when new.

Second, the brilliant, bright reds currently available with which to paint a Model T are nothing like the brightest reds that would have been economically practical to apply to a vehicle in that era. Intense, pure red pigments that delight the modern beholder hadn't even been invented in that era, and those that had were far too expensive to be practical for that application. Not to say that "relatively speaking", an appealing, brilliant red was beyond the capability of carriage and wagon painters prior to 1914 ; it's just that their brightest reds would appear rather subdued when placed side-by-side with today's offerings.

Let the floodgates of opposing opinions be opened !

Sure, I'll bite.

I use a LOT of natural pigments in one of my other hobbies (religious iconography, using egg tempra as the binder), at one time I was under the impression that sure, ALL the original colors were so dark as o be black... Until I started playing with natural vermillion, some of the chrome oxide greens, etc... which were around in the 1800's (and before) and are as brilliant ann bright as anything today - becauswe they're still being used today. I'm sure someone, somewhere has the formulas that were used to paint these bodies, using the correct materials (including pigments) and I would expect that Ford's "Carmine Red" or "Vermillion" (which is an actual pigment color, almost an orange-ish hue of red) is more bright than dark.

I also refrence other original vehicles - From Harley Davidson Gray (which was a fawn gray, not dark at all) to my favorite, Flying Merkel Yellow (bright as a springtime lemon) - even carriages had some amazing (and fairly bright) colors...

While it is well known that Ford's blue (late 1911-13) was a very dark, dark blue, almost black, I've not seen anything (other that conjecture) that the green was almost black, or the red was so dark as to be almost black... when other paint colors of the era were not dark at all.

I may be wrong, but like I said, somewhere the original varnish color formulas are out there, and once found, it would be (scarily) simple to duplicate that formula and see a sample. I do it all the time with 16th and 17h century Russian icons, matching their (equally brilliant) hues using egg and mildly irritating things like lead, mercury, sulfur, and cadmium (to name a few).

Anyway, I am in no way an authority on what Ford (or Fisher or Beaudette or whoever) used for their varnishes for bodies - I actually suspect they could have been different shades of green, blue, red, gray, etc. - which to me is part of the fun of the chase. Chasing down unspoiled samples of the color is difficult after 110 years of nelect (maybe under a data plate on a dashboard, or lurking under the upholstery on a body panel or etc. - I found the original Harley Olive Green under a floorboard rubber pad rivet) but if those secret recipes were around, you could make that paint again. And I'm still amazed at the luster of the swaths of original pyroxylin I've seen. (I would give a lot to see a copy of Pre-GM Fisher's paint archives - maybe the Library of Congress?)

Anyway, just wanted to throw this out there to chew the lead-based paint, er, fat.

I wonder if this site could be of any help:

https://www.autocolorlibrary.com/

I had heard the same thing that Susanne pointed out. I will add that I have a stored inside, untouched black '23 that I had to pull the engine out of a few years ago. I took the hood sills off and saw paint under them that had not seen the light of day since Highland Park. I was actually shocked at the mirror finish on the black. I could see my reflection in it. I've certainly never seen that finish even on a restored car. The original lacquer looked different than a modern paint (more glassy maybe?)

Imagine trying to describe colors to a person born blind. Since non of us today have ever seen a '09 - '13 Model T roll off the assembly line, How would we ever come up with an exact color match to those cars. Bruce's book may have the best guess as to paint codes that may be close to Fords original colors. I am sure he spent countless hours researching this very topic. If ever I win the powerball, I would paint my '09 the color listed in his book. Until then, I will remain in the all black no brass world with my '25 s.

Our 1907 Ford Model K had a portion of the rumble seat that had previously never seen the light of day. It was a deep, almost dark, rich red. I suspect Model S Roadsters and 1909 T tourings were the same. It was an absolutely gorgeous and rich color:

I’ve offered it before so stay with me on this.

When it was still Finneran and Haley (now Benjamin Moore) paint lab, I worked with the lab closely on restoration work throughout Philadelphia Independence Park projects.

One day I asked a favor of the lab rats. I had come across an original chip book made by Ditzler in the 20’s which had not seen a whole lot of day. I asked them to take a piece of the Ford Red, dissect it using electronic tools, microscopes, mass spectrometers and their learned education and art at recreating historic paints good enough for the National Park Service...and tell me what probably “was”. My understanding was the procedure called for stripping out post application natural oxidation of the varnish overlay with a second round of adjustment for what they felt would have been aging of original pigment...

And no, they didn’t come up with Coca-cola red although it sure is pretty but what they came up with definitely had me go hmmm, it would make total logical sense as at the time, the practice was to hire itinerant color experts, who would share their mixology with manufacturers while passing through town. If I recall correctly, there were the Ditzler brothers who learned their trade in north Jersey and then took to the road as ‘mixologist’ before deciding to hang the Ditzler name as a manufacturer of finishes to the automotive trades. Coincidence?

In the lab rat view, that Ford Red made by Ditzler, was amazingly near the International Harvester Red which today is still available in almost any paint technology using pigments that are far more stable against natural oxidation than 100 year old choices.

Rich Bingham is on the right track in his views but the idea of Coca Cola red being the more modern choice will always win, safety in numbers on existing high end paint jobs

Old photos of fire engines usually look black also, but we know they weren't.

Does anyone have Ditzler or PPG color numbers for these reds. I have a ‘09 touring to paint this spring and would like to be as correct as possible.

These codes for Carmine Red on 1909s were posted before:

Since autos came on the scene in the early 1900’s matching the paint colors has been a head scratcher for years.
The ‘what comes around goes around’ saying goes with paint colors too.
More than a few of the old colors that were used show up today but with different names applied to the colors and that’s what confuses people. The paint codes change slightly to add more confusion with the improvement made in the paints.
What comes to my mind is the engine color orange paint that Ford used on their Y-block 272-292 engines in the 60’s. I had 2 cars that had that engine and found out that the color Ford used was an exact match to Allis Chalmers orange used on their tractors in that time period and earlier.

This sounds crazy but hear me out--

Old photos were taken with old cameras. Old cameras used the film of that time. So you're likely to have a snap-shot taken on orthochromatic film.

Orthochromatic B/W film is not very sensitive to red light; a darkroom of that time would be provided with a red "safelight" lantern so the photographer could work and see what he was doing, without spoiling films and sensitive plates. I have some old cameras and they came with a hole in the back to see the paper backing film as you advance it-- covered with a red window, it kept the film safe and lets me read how many shots I have left.

So taking a picture of a red 1909 Ford with a 1910s camera is probably going to give you a nearly black car.