wheels and rims

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:17 pm

I am interested in finding out as much as possible about Model T wheels and rims. I am mostly interested in the wooden spoke wheels. I have three Ts, 22, 23, and 24. All with wooden spoke. Two with 30" and one with 21". From the small amount of reading and research, I understand there are many different manufacturers of the wheels and rims. I don't have a complete set from a single manufacturer on any of the cars. I would like to know what is out there so I know what to look for when buying spare parts.

Is there a complete "single" source of information about wheels and rims? Did any of the members compile information regarding this topic?

Thanks for any help and links to prior works.

Ted

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:51 pm

I don't have everything on this page, but it covers some of what you want to know: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG113.html.
Yes, in addition to their own wheels Ford bought from Hayes, Firestone, Kelsey, and other wheel makers. If I were making up complete sets of wheels from one manufacturer I would look for felloes and rims from Hayes. Those seem to be the most common.

There's also information on wheels in the Model T Encylopedia, which every Model T fan should have: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:09 am

Steve,

Thank you. Your page on tires is what I was looking for. Like you said, it has some of the data, however very good collection of data.

First question: We (My father and I) have a wheel with a bent fellow. We concluded that the fellow was bent by jacking up the front end and placing a stationary object next to wheel and rotating it. It was easy to see that a portion of the fellow was bent outward and made the wheel wobble when driving. Has anyone successfully straightened a fellow? If so is there a process that is written down that we could follow?

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:21 am

It wouldn't surprise me if a big town like Cincy has a wheel shop that fixes bent wheels and could straighten out your felloe.

TRDxB2 · Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:38 am

Suggest you post pictures of what you have for others to identify what you have ( rim area near the valve and another at a lug). There is a caution on mismatching fellows and rims

Post by **ChrisB** » Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:07 pm

Ted, I went thru the same thing with my 23 Canadian Coupe.

I thought the car was nicely original but on removing the wheels to rewood them had 2 different types of felloes & 3 types of rims.

Mine are Kelsey loose lugs wheels.

See this post
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13182

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:10 pm

Frank and Chris, thanks.

The first set of wheels are the biggest problem. 22 Roadster that I bought last year. Many parts from many years, most from 22 as much as I can tell.

Front right wheel is the glaring problem. It wobbles like a webble and has some funky slots cut in the felloe. I need to decide what the path will be to resolve this problem.

Picture of the slots cut in the felloe (right front);

videos of wobble in felloe and hub fairly straight (right front);
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AulvY0HAYWkCkaJyNDS ... g?e=pWDy7h

Same from right wheel, lug and stem whole ;

: 20210102_192543516_iOS.jpg (35.17 KiB) Viewed 4217 times

: 20210102_205412861_iOS.jpg (32.03 KiB) Viewed 4217 times

Since there are no marking on these wheels and rims, I am not sure what they are. After close inspection, the wheels all look the same on this car, (just not on the others). Let's discuss these 22 Roadster wheels first then I will post pictures of the other cars.

Questions that I have;

1) what wheels and rims are these? mfg?
2) Can I replace just the felloe?
3) If #2 is yes, where can I buy just a felloe?

thanks for all your thoughts.
Ted

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:23 pm

Not sure what manufacturer they are, but the first picture, that felloe needs to be scrapped. It should have a small hole for the bolt. Not that slot.
So if the others are a matched set, you need to look for one which matches. Otherwise if any two match look for two like them. Since the are de-mountable rims, you need matching felloes and rims so you only need to carry one spare.
Many times if you are in a local club, you will find a member who has some spare wheels that he would sell you. You can also visit a swap meet and many times you will find wheels there. There are some people who just collect spare parts and bring them to the swap meets to sell. I don't know of any source of new felloes. You can get the spokes if you know the measurements. Anyway, it doesn't matter which manufacturer just look for a matched set. Try the rims on if they don't come with the wheels to be sure yours will fit.
Recently we were working on a 20 touring which had wheels off a 25 or 26. They were 21inch wheels. We were able to find some 30 inch de-mountable wheels and also sold the 21 inch wheels.
Norm

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:35 pm

The rim with Oklahoma chrome in 20210102_192543516_iOS.jpg is Hayes. The felloe in the picture above it probably is too, but it has been butchered too much to be sure. Looking for a replacement I would start with Model T Haven, Ron Paetz, and the Neunhoffers. Yes, you can replace just the felloe. But if the spokes are not great you might as well do them at the same time.

The notch on a Hayes felloe should look like this.

The Hayes name is often visible on the lugs.

Hayes rims have the lug that extends past the bead, thus the notch in the felloe.

**Model T Haven, KS (620) 365-6709 modelthaven@nautilus.net

*Lang’s, MA (978) 297-1919 www.modeltford.com

*Bob’s, IL (815) 633-7244 ModelT2001@comcast.net

*Snyder’s, OH (330) 549-5313 don@snydersantiqueauto.com

*Chaffin’s, CA (951) 735-4791 www.chaffinsgarage.com

**Ron Paetz, Lone Pine Enterprises, WI (608) 604-7534 lonepine@mwt.net

**Julius & Marvin Neunhoffer, TX (830) 257-8168 9hoffer@maverickbbs.com

**Dave Huson, 2116 Charro Ave. Longmont, Co. 80504
Phone 313-774-9246
email modelt112@msn.com

**Bob Hagelgantz, KS (785) 731-5285 loah@gbta.net

*Birdhaven Vintage Auto Supply, IA (515) 674-3949

*Antique Auto Ranch 2225 N. Dollar Rd. in Spokane Valley, WA 99212
(509) 535-7789

*Andy Loso
323 W MN ST
St Joseph, MN 56374
(320) 293-1953

*Steve's T Works, LLC
Model T Ford Service, Repair, New & Used Parts.
Longbranch, WA
(253) 884-1925

*Smith & Jones
60 Wisconsin Street
West Columbia
SC 29170
(803) 822-4141

* New & refurbished parts (Also used parts not advertised; you have to ask.)
** All or mostly used parts

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:50 pm

I suspect someone in the past cut that felly out to better fit a wrong rim. That is one of the main areas that rims and fellies of different manufacturers don't fit. Cutting it out that way would be a bit extreme, and not a good idea. Check the fixed lugs on the rim for a name, or compare with photos from known rims to see if you can identify the rims. Provided the rims are proper for a Ford, and not from a Chevrolet, Overland, or other car, get felloes to match the rims you have.
A few things about rebuilding wheels. Spokes may be different. Some brands of wheels used different sized tenons on the end of the spoke. And one used a spoke that was just slightly a different length. And obviously, the 21 inch and 30 inch spokes are not interchangeable. The hubs (except for wire wheel!) are almost totally interchangeable.
IF the spokes are in really good condition, they can be reused. And to some limited extent, they can be mixed and matched, as long as the tenons and lengths are compatible. Hunt for information about John Regan's wheel/spoke press. Steve Jelf's website may have that information. It is an excellent way to assemble this type of wheel. (It is NOT good for wooden felloe wheels! And was never claimed to be.) If there is any doubt about the condition of the spokes, they should be replaced. Although wooden wheels are much stronger and more resilient than most people think. A lot of people throw away spokes that I would use.

I see Steve J has jumped in ahead of me (I type slow, and get interrupted often) with some of the information you may need! Thank you Steve J!

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:22 am

We really need to see photos of what you have to be able to point you in one direction or another. The photos need to show details of bolt holes for the rims, the valve stem hole on the inside of the felloe and any details of cutouts/reliefs/ slots in the felloes at the bolt holes.
Then a set of photos showing details of the lugs area of the rims and the bolts/nuts/clips used to attach them to the wheel. Then we can tell you what you have, what goes with what and what to look for to build matching set.

Hope this helps.
AllAn from down under.

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:58 pm

Sorry for delay. Busy rescuing youngest son from skiing accident. He is OK but I think his confidence is shaken a bit.

22 Roadster;
3 different wheels and 2 different rims. I have looked at Mr. Vowell's artwork and I believe I have a combination of Hayes and Ford wheels, but I would like others experience.

These wheels are currently on the car.

Wheel type 1 (simple stem hole, straight side)

Wheel type 2 (enclosed stem hole, straight side)

Wheel type 3 (enclosed stem hole, rounded side)

Rims that are currently on the car;

Rim 1 (what I call large lug)

Rim 2 (what I call small lug)

Any help identifying these wheels and rims is appreciated.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:41 pm

Wheel 1 and Rim 1 are Hayes. The rim may have the Hayes name on the outside of the lug. I don't know about the others.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:04 am

Wheels 2 and 3 with the ferrule around the valve stem hole should take a rim with a similar smaller ferule around the valve stem hole. The smaller stem ferule on the rim nests in the felloe ferrule to prevent the rim from slipping on the wheel and tearing the valve stem out. BUT, wheel three has depressions in the outer edge, which will accommodate a Hayes rim with what you are calling a large lug. That is how Hayes wire wheels are configured. I cannot find a reason for the valve stem ferrule on that wheel, as lugged type rims have no need for it. The lugs prevent the rim slipping on the felloe. I am about to give up on further comment on US wheels/felloes and stick to the Canadian sourced Kelsey wheels which came with our cars.

Allan from down under.

Post by **Dan Hatch** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:48 am

Ford service bulletins have a pictures of different rims and wheels. That should help you find what you have and need.
Wheel with the cup at valve stem in most likely Firestone. Needs rim a tit at valve stem.
Some time if you look inside the fellow you can find name and part number stamped there. Same with rims. Dan

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:16 am

Nice discussion. I have a felloe (demountable) that has a little wobble to it. Spokes are good but I'm prepared to disassemble it if the felloe could be trued up. Is there a way to do that? Somebody mentioned a rim shop?

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:59 am

January 1924 Service Bulletin

: Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 10.42.11 AM.png (16.41 KiB) Viewed 3748 times

Somebody mentioned a rim shop?

There are shops that specialize in straightening bent wheels. A Google search should find some of them.

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:42 pm

First off, let me thank everyone for adding to the thread.

Steve Jeff, After looking at the 1924 service bulletin, and VowellArt drawing, I am confused more by the wheels.

As you state, "Rim 1" is a Hayes. It looks to me that "Rim 2" is a Ford?

However you mention that "Wheel 1" is a Hayes. However "Wheel 3" looks to match the HAYES since the outside wall of the felloe is curved inward.

: hayes 2845B.jpg (6.54 KiB) Viewed 3683 times

"Wheel 1 and 2" match the Ford felloe since it does not curve, it is vertical.

Do I have it correct?

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:36 pm

Ted, to add to the confusion re Hayes wheels. The Hayes wire wheels I run on two of my T's have felloes with rolled edges on BOTH sides. The outer rolled edge has a relief pressed into it to allow the foot on the Hayes lug to go over the felloe edge. It would appear that there are Hayes felloes which do not have the rolled in outer edge, it simply stands straight up as it does on 21" Ford wheels. This straight up edge has a relief cut in it to accommodate the lug foot.
A good starting point with piecing together a set of wheels is to make sure you have matching felloes. Kelsey wheels usually have loose lug fittings which require a land to be punched into the felloe at each bolt hole so that the foot of the lug has something on which to rest. Then you may get together a set with the straight up edge like Steve indicates are Hayes. Or, you can build a set which have no lands punched in the felloes for a loose lugs, but have the two rolled edges on the felloe. Then you need to mate up a set of rims which go with your choice of wheel felloes.

Hope this gives you a starting point.
Allan from down under.

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:37 pm

Allan, good information.

I have the 22 Roadster and 23 Huckster and they both had a mish mash set of wheels and rims. Since I am down one felloe due to previous "re-engineering" the relief to a full blown slot, I have (7) wheels and (10) rims;

(5) straight edge felloes (I believe are Ford, based on Vowell Art)
(2) rolled edge felloes (that I believe are Hayes, based on Vowell Art)

(4) Large Lug (I believe are Hayes, based on Vowell art)
(6) Small Lug (I believe to be Ford, based on Vowell art)

so I do have enough to make a set for the 22 Roadster. I will be using what I believe are the Ford wheels and rims. I will look for (2) more Hayes felloes and (1) more Hayes rim to make a set for the 23 Huckster.

I am still looking for confirmation that I am reading the Vowell Art correctly and the Vowell Art is correct. To that end, the Vowell Art agrees with the 1924 Service Bulletin. Unfortunately the art does not agree with some thoughts in this thread. But sometimes knowledge of the history can trump written documents. I appreciate input.

Ted

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:48 pm

Perhaps I'm mistaken about this being a Hayes felloe. Maybe it's Ford. Either way, the Hayes rims fit it perfectly, and it's what I use. There's no doubt about what the rims are, as the name is stamped on their lugs.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:23 am

Sreve, it would make sense for Ford wheel felloes to have that relief so the Hayes rims would fit as well as Ford rims, so maybe they are Ford felloes.
Ted, your wheel 3 has a pressed in relief at the bolt hole like the ones on my Hayes wire wheels. That is what I suspect is a Hayes felloe.
With regard to the Vowell art drawings, the top left one is representative of what I believe is a Hayes set-up. Top right is like Kelsey, but our Canadian sourced cars did not come with that style of lug/nut. Ours are typical of the right second down having the U shaped lug. You will note that on both these, the felloe has a dumped down ledge on which the longer, inner leg of the lug rests. This ledge is absent in the rest of the drawings, but the U shaped lug is still pictured. I believe this is not correct. Those lugs will cant as the rim bolts are tensioned, as there is no land for the inner leg of the lug to engage on the felloe.
Rather than there being a fault in the drawing of the felloes, It may be that the felloes are correct and the lugs on rims to suit those felloes should be fixed lugs like the Hayes and Ford rims. This is how our 1925 Canadian sourced cars are.

Allan from down under.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:24 am

I've got a wheel that looks like the one in Steve's photo. It was made by Firestone for Ford and I believe is of the "Ford" design. It accommodates either Ford or Hayes rims.

: wheel.jpg (40.3 KiB) Viewed 3547 times

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:24 pm

Thanks Tim. That makes sense of Steve's observations and my thought on interchangeability.

Allan from down under.

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:04 pm

Tim, Steve, Allan,
Thanks again.

I have my plan for the wheels, however I would like to keep the conversation going. I am going to section the felloe that is scrap so I can get a good cross section to measure. Even though the Hayes rim and Ford rim seem interchangeable on the Ford felloe, I have some doubts based on the Vowell art cross sections. Specifically how the rim "sits" on the felloe. I will provide drawings in later replies as I get them drawn.

Till then I will share some screen shots of the 3D models I am building CAD. I have modeled the Ford felloe and spokes for the 30" wheels. Next will be the hub, then the rims. Then I will be able to cross section the model and share what I think is an issue with using Hayes rims on Ford felloes.

Tim,
addressing an issue you mentioned about your wheel having a wobble in it. I had the same on both front wheels. That is what started this journey. When spinning the wheel while car in air, it was obvious that there was a section of the felloe that was "bent" inward toward the frame. So I took the wheel off and discovered the slotted felloe. Then I took off the other wheels and discovered the mix-match.
Since (with the help of this thread) we decided the felloe was scrap, we decided to take the wheel apart to get experience with removing spokes. After getting the spokes out we came across a surprise. The felloe went back to home (flat - straight). What we guessed was that the two front wheels were bent from an "accident", possible hitting a curb or something (since the drag link was bent as well). During impact the spokes moved a bit in the hub, keeping the felloe in the "bent" position. When we released the hub and spokes, the felloe retracted to home position. To prove this theory, we are going to loosen the hub bolts on the other front wheel and apply some pressure in correct direction if needed. We are thinking we can "straighten" the felloe while keeping the wheel together. Just a theory, will report later.

Ted

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:00 pm

Ted,
First of all, you have some serious modeling skills! I'm saving those graphics to my reference files. Interesting enough, the felloe I pictured just came back from getting new spokes but the hub is removed because I'm going to use the existing hub on my car that has been modified for floating hubs and disc brakes. When I get it out of the box I'll take a picture and compare it to your graphics. I'm currently nursing a sprained back so it might be a couple of weeks.

Your discussion of the rims springing back into shape has me intrigued. The felloe in question is on a rear wheel. I think I'll pull the spokes and see what happens. I agree, this is a good thread to keep going.

Post by **ivaldes1** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:17 pm

CAD drawing is cool. It makes me wonder if a composite single mold equivalent to the bunch of spokes can be manufactured?

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:04 pm

Ignacio - I bet you could but attaching it to the felloe might be the problem.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:43 pm

Ted, you raise an interesting point about how the rim actually sits on the felloe. That Firestone rim with the straight up edge relies on the rim binding on the rolled over inner edge of the felloe for support. The rim does not contact the straight up edge at all. This supports my long held belief, formed over many years of T ownership, that the rim/felloe combination relies on the rim binding on just ONE of the two sides of the felloe.
On our Canadian sourced cars, with wheels supplied by Kelsey, demountable wheels up to 1925 had loose lug rims. The matching felloe has rolled edges on both the inside and the outside, and these rolled edges are the same width. Good rims mounted on good felloes, bind on the outer rolled edge, leaving a gap between the felloe and rim on the rolled edge on the inside , that gap being wide enough to accept a credit card.
In 1925 we changed to rims with fixed lugs. The felloes for these no longer have the pressed in slot to engage the loose lug, and the inner rolled edge is WIDER than the outer edge. When good rims are matched to good felloes the rim now binds on the inner edge, and the credit card can be inserted on the outside.
There is another difference in the felloes. Those for the lugged rims are deeper, resulting in slightly shorter spokes.This has caused problems for those who were not aware of the difference when rebuilding wheels.The usual spokes for lugged type wheels are too short when assembled into loose lug felloe.
Others may have differing opinions re the rim binding on both edges of a rolled edge felloe, and it does happen when worn rim/felloe combinations occur.

Allan from down under.

ModelTED · Post by **ModelTED** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:22 pm

Allan,

Good stuff. Based on your comments, a slight change in plan. I will meticulously make measurements of all components per each wheel type and model them. Yes I will be measuring worn wheels, but I can always change them in CAD when I get the "original" dimensions. So in the end, I will have models of ;

Hubs

Spokes

Felloes

Rims

I will be able to show the different rims laying on different felloe combinations.

Ted

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