Phinney Walker Clock Repair Questions

[namdc3]

Does anyone know how to get the movement out of this case? My guess is that the pot metal knurled ring unscrews from the plated brass cylinder. I took this inner cylinder (and movement) out of the outer can by removing the three small screws at the rear of the clock, but I had no luck removing the pot metal ring from the inner cylinder. I’m afraid the pot metal ring will break. Right hand thread, left hand thread, shrunk together? Thanks for any help.

[Bill Coyle]

I have one similar to yours, but its a Keyless Brand that says Rim wind - Rim set. The ring on mine unscrews ccw (right hand thread) but the threads in the ring are very loose it too is made of pot metal.
Good luck!
Bill

[namdc3]

Thanks for the good picture. I think on mine the pot metal would have an OD thread to engage with the brass cylinder and an ID thread to engage with the silver colored ring that holds the glass in. I’m also thinking the OD thread would have to be a right hand thread or it would unscrew when you press in and wind (pulling out and setting takes a lot less torque). I’m wondering if the pot metal is swollen with age and is thus really tight on the brass cylinder. Does anyone know if pot metal would shrink significantly more than brass in a freezer? Of course, I may be on the wrong track if that’s not how the joint is assembled.

[J1MGOLDEN]

The real problem is when you get a good grip on that ring to be able to turn it, it breaks and the glass also breaks, stabbing your hand with small shards.

Been there, done that, and then put the clock in the trash, the best place I could find for it.

[namdc3]

Remarkably, this clock sat in a cabinet with no glass for decades and had parts floating around in the back of the case (a clip had come off, allowing a couple gears to come loose. I put it back together but was unable to clean and lubricate it because of not getting the bezel off. I wound it, rocked it, and nudged the second hand gently/intermittently for about half an hour and it has been running quite nicely on its own for the past day now. It has only lost a couple minutes, which I think might be remedied once cleaned and lubed. I also haven't fiddled with the speed adjustment lever yet. So, I think if nothing else I might peel the bezel out and make a new one in brass or aluminum. The glass itself is only a couple dollars. Maybe someone will have a magic solution to save the old bezel. Pot metal just wasn't intended to last this long.

[namdc3]

Well, last night I placed the clock face down in a dish of shallow Kroil (high enough to cover the bezel threads but low enough to not touch the hands) and put it in the freezer thinking maybe the CTE of potmetal would be greater than that of brass. This morning I took it out and am letting it come up to room temperature, still in the Kroil. I plan to repeat this cycle a few times, and then try to unsrew it again. I'm thinking I should do that at room temperature since the potmetal may be more brittle when frozen. This is all kind of a guessing game, though.

[jiminbartow]

This is a obvious question, but you never know... In the first picture, I see the nuts are still on the threaded studs coming out the back of the case. Have you tried removing the two nuts from these threaded studs? Jim Patrick.

[jiminbartow]

This is a obvious question, but you never know... In the first picture, I see the nuts are still on the threaded studs coming out the back of the case. Have you tried removing the two nuts from these threaded studs? Jim Patrick.

PS. If the nuts are not holding the movement in the case, it is obviously it is the threaded case and bezel that must be released. Be careful about putting it in the freezer. You don’t want there to be so much movement in the expansion and contraction of the metal, that it could cause the dial paint to loose and flake off. I would not be too worried about soaking the clock case and movement up to the bezel threads in Blaster, Kroil or *vinegar, as long as the solution does not go over the dial, of which the dial paint could be damaged by prolonged submersion. This way, the release agent can work on the threads from the inside of the case. The metal movement cannot be damaged by the release lubricant and once the movement is out of the case, the movement can be dried out in the open air and once dried, can be properly serviced, oiled and lubricated. Jim Patrick

*Vinegar and/or lemon juice are mild acids that might dissolve any oxidation that is locking the bezel threads in the case threads.

[namdc3]

Jim, I should have taken a better picture. The outer can, or housing, with the studs comes off with three small screws at the back. That leaves an inner sleeve, in this arrangement we could call it the case I guess, that has the movement inside. The bezel needs to come off to take the movement out to facilitate cleaning, oiling, and putting new glass in. Good thought on the dial paint flaking. Maybe I'll try it tonight at room temperature after having soaked for a day. By the way, the Kroil remained a very thin viscosity, even at freezing.

At first, I didn't see your vinegar comment. Also a good thought. I had also thought about CLR. I think with any of these acids, time should be controlled so as not to damage the plating. Unfortunately the ship has probably sailed on this now that the oxidization is coated/polluted with Kroil. Many people swear by vinegar was a penetrant on rusty bolts; I agree but think it is more effective if it is the first plan of attack on dry/non oily parts.

I don't think Phinney-Walker clocks were/are particularly good clocks or valuable, but it would be nice to save it if I can.

[jiminbartow]

If you want to try the vinegar approach, you can soak the whole thing in mineral spirits (not lacquer thinner) to remove the Kroill and old oil, let air dry for a few days, or dry in an oven on the lowest setting (if setting is above 150 degrees, put a thermometer in the oven, turn the *oven on, let it heat up, then turn it off and when it cools down to 150 degrees, put the clock in and let it sit until dry) then try soaking the case and movement in vinegar up to and covering the threads just below the dial (with the dial facing up). Take it out every now and then and try to unscrew it. A lot of bubbles is not good as it means the vinegar is attacking the metal. Neutralize the acidic vinegar with a solution of baking soda in water. Rinse with water then try the lemon juice (a milder acid).

Until you are successful in removing the movement from the case, this clock is useless to you, so, while being as careful as you can be not to bend or cause further damage to the case or bezel, whatever you need to do to achieve success is okay. Jim Patrick

PS. *Another way to dry electronics and mechanical devices: Several years ago, I dropped my flip-phone cellphone in the water and, of course, it died. Most people would have discarded the phone but I liked it, so, I removed the battery and taped the cellphone to the inside drum of my clothes dryer with 2” wide clear packing tape. The dryer is good because it safely heats the item and vents out the humid air until the item is dry. After several cycles, my phone started to work. When it was fully functional, I stopped. All of my pictures and data was saved. I still use this old flip-phone, which is eight years old. Last month I did the same thing with my wife’s smart phone which got wet and stopped working and this method saved her phone, her pictures and her data.

[jiminbartow]

I took a closer look at the clock at it does appear that the threads maybe located above the dial. If this is the case you are correct in soaking it with the dial down, without allowing the solution to come in contact with the dial. When I suggested soaking the movement and case or housing with the dial up, I was assuming the threads were located below the dial. This would be a project I would enjoy. Have fun. I think, with care, patience and ingenuity, you will be rewarded with success. Jim Patrick

PS. If you have a vice, you can line the jaws with protective rubber inserts made for this purpose and gently tighten the clock housing or bezel (which ever is toughest) in the jaws to hold it while you attempt to unscrew the bezel. Not too tight. You don’t want to deform the housing or bezel.

[namdc3]

Well, I successfully unscrewed the bezel from the clock. However, once no longer captured by the brass cylinder the bezel fell apart into about six pieces. No audible crack was heard, and when I lifted up a piece I was able to break it in half about like breaking a wet cracker. I don’t know if the material was this soft to begin with or if it got this soft due to soaking in Kroil. My guess would be the latter, but I don’t know. Live and learn.

[jiminbartow]

Sorry to hear about that. Did the bezel come off because you successfully unscrewed it, or because it broke, then came off in pieces? We’re the threads I bad condition? Can you post a few pictures of the pieces? Might help future Phinny Walker clock owners, to see how the threads are configured. Does the clock, itself function? You might still be able to find a bezel online or even make one from molded epoxy. Jim Patrick

[namdc3]

The clock itself is in great shape and running well. Here are photos of the bezel shape. It unscrewed fully before falling apart. When captured (sandwiched) between the inner glass retaining ring and the outer brass cylinder, it acted as one piece. Once no longer contained by the outer cylinder, it fell apart into pieces. I suspect that had the inner glass retaining ring not been there it would have fallen apart in place. Whatever I replace it with needs to be able to withstand the torque of winding the clock. I need to do some measuring to determine the outer thread. The inner thread is less critical because it just holds the glass retaining ring which could be accomplished some other way.

[jiminbartow]

Don’t throw anything away. I think it can be repaired by purchasing a 1/16” thick glass lens the same diameter as the O.D. of the threaded ring and the I.D. of the bezel lip next to the bezel threads. Position the glass lens on top of the threaded ring and, using a good, high strength clear epoxy glue (The strongest I know of is JB Weld, Clearweld with a strength of 4400psi) mix 1 to 1 then using a toothpick glue the bezel pieces together by gluing the bezel piece to the glass and locking the bezel threads into the O.D. threads of the threaded ring and placing a dab of epoxy between the end joints of the next bezel piece, locking the threads of the next bezel piece into the O.D. threads of the threaded ring. Continue this until all pieces are in place in the correct order. Be careful not to get any epoxy on the threads of the threaded ring and bezel pieces. If you can work fast enough to glue in all 6 pieces with one mixture, that is great, however, if the glass lens is slightly too small, when you epoxy the pieces to the lens and are unable to adjust the pieces, due to the epoxy curing too fast, you might be unable to fit in the last piece. It will be best to fit in the last two pieces together, or you may not be able to get the last piece to fit. It is necessary to work fast, before the epoxy cures so you can fit in the last two pieces, with enough time to pull the pieces together as tightly as possible so the bezel ring will fit in the case. Ideally, the best way to be sure the bezel ring/lens retainer will fit the case threads is to try and carefully screw the newly assembled bezel into the case. They do make a 15 minute epoxy if you need more time. If you are dissatisfied with your first try, soak the pieces and glass in lacquer thinner and carefully clean of all epoxy, and start over. After allowing it to cure for a couple of days, you can coat the bezel with a good chrome finish paint, which looks a lot like nickel. Jim Patrick

[namdc3]

Thanks, Jim. I saved the pieces and may try that, but the material is pretty soft and may continue to be a problem. It might hold once it’s fully assembled again, though. I’m still thinking on it and have some ideas but need to take some measurements.

[jiminbartow]

With the assembled bezel pieces in between the I.D. threads of the outer case and the O.D. threads of the ring, the bezel should be very secure. If you try it and are met with success, please post a photo. Good luck. Jim Patrick

[namdc3]

This is just dry fit with no glass and the pieces not bonded. There are more than six pieces now because some of the pieces broke in half from their own weight when picking them up. Given that they are so soft, I was worried that the bezel would not withstand the torque of winding the clock. However, once installed it seems to be strong enough in sheer across the face. FYI, a rubber band around the bezel was my tool of choice for this job.

[jiminbartow]

AMAZING! Looks great! I can’t even see the joints! Is there a lens in it? If you get the fifteen minute clear epoxy and put it together, it should be as strong or stronger than it was. Congratulations! Jim Patrick

PS. If you go on eBay and do a search for “round glass watch crystal”, you may be able to find a lens for you clock in the right diameter.

[namdc3]

There is not glass in it right now, but it measures to be a standard 2-1/4” glass, which are available. That will give me time to paint the hour hand and clean/lube the movement. It is still losing a little bit of time, but I’m hoping a good cleaning and adjustment of the speed lever will fix that.

[jiminbartow]

The bezel looks so good, a little metal polish will look a lot better than the silver paint I suggested earlier. After you get the bezel together and stabilized, a little vaseline on the threads will keep it from locking up, enabling you to take it apart for maintenance in the future. Jim Patrick