MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:54 pm**

My Username is TOMDOC

I am having a hard time cranking my Model T. I was told that the shims in
the transmission as they age bind with each other and drag against the
motor making it hard to crank both electrically and by hand. Short of pulling apart my transmission and
rebuilding it, is there a good liquid to pour into the crankcase to help
them loosen up like kerosene or Rislone?

Thanks!

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:32 pm**

You can always jack up a rear wheel to make cranking easier. I have a bad back and carry a single winter jack that I can use to raise a rear wheel in a jiffy. Usually don't need it when warmed up but it certainly makes cranking a lot easier. Also, leaving the hand brake lever forward when the car is off may help to reduce the drag on the clutch discs. I run straight 30w oil but if you are not already using a lighter multi viscosity oil you might switch to something like 10w30.

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:33 pm**

I hadn't heard the one about shims causing binding or drag over time.

Is your car stored outdoors or in an un-heated garage? If so, there are some things you can do to reduce the cranking effort.

1. Leave the brake lever fully forward when the car is parked. This squeezes the oil from between the clutch disks and reduces the drag on the next start. If you car is parked on a slope, use chocks on both sides of one of the front wheels to keep the car from rolling. Pull the brake lever all the way back just prior to starting, of course!

2. Use thinner oil in the winter time. There are a lot of different opinions on what oil to use. All I can tell you is that I use 5w-30 year round and have no issues with cranking effort or lubrication.

3. With a front wheel chocked on both sides, leave the brake lever fully forward and jack up one rear wheel for cranking. This will allow that wheel to spin during cranking. Once the engine is started, pull the brake lever fully aft, let the rear wheels come to a stop, then lower the rear wheel back down.

Good luck!

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:30 pm**

In colder weather it’s best to leave the handbrake forward after the last run. Pull the brake back to leave in neutral to start the next time around.
Jacking up the rear wheel is a help to getting the car started also. Using a light grade oil helps also. These steps are pretty much what others have mentioned.

Also having a good running T helps . You might try pulling the engine through a few times then turn the switch on.
All T’s don’t start exactly alike with the same settings. That’s something each owner eventually finds out over time. I have three with starters that are each slightly different in starting and carburetor adjustments.

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:30 pm**

There are no shims in the transmission - thrust washers, yes and they wouldn't cause your problem.

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:35 pm**

I think that thinking the transmission is binding is the effect of leaving the handbrake on in neutral and trying to crank it with cold oil between the plates. That’s the reason to leave the brake off to let the oil drain between the plates. It can help some.

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:10 pm**

Tomdoc,

Lots of questions come to mind. But first, the theory you got about what may be causing it, is just not possible. At least as stated.

Questions...
1. Is the car just as hard to crank if you put the car in high gear and jack up the rear wheels?
2. How often do you check the oil level in the engine, and what is the oil level currently?
3. Has it always been this way? Did it just happen?
4. If this is a new thing, has anything at all been done to the car or happened to the car before you noticed the issue?
5. What weight of oil are you using?
6. How cold is it when you try to crank it?
7. Does it run fine and have plenty of power once it gets started or does it still labor?
8. Can you actually get it to start?
9. How hard is "hard"? Can you still turn the engine over by hand?

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:48 pm**

Hey Jerry, in order I will answer your questions. I have had the car for 10 years, and in general, she can be hand cranked, but I feel like I am fighting a lot of compression. Obviously, she doesn't like the cold and is much easier to start in the summer months.

1. It is much easier to crank when you jack up the rear and put it in gear.
2. I check the oil every time I drive and it is halfway between the two petcock valves. I have a glass sight.
3. It has always been difficult, but seems to be getting worse.
4. Like I said, it has been gradual, but worse over the last few years. Nothing has been done.
5. 30 weight oil.
6. 45 degrees maybe in the garage, but tough on a 60 degree day as well...same at 80 degrees in the summer.
7. I runs fairly well, needs a carb, but runs ok. Once in a while I lose compression when carbon builds on the exhaust valve, but when that is knocked off, it runs pretty good. That being said, not super strong up hill, she has always been kinda tired.
8. I can't get it to start right now, can't crank it fast enough I guess and I think there is too much torque for the electric starter...that being said, I may leave it jacked up and in gear and try again.
9. I can turn it over by hand, but it takes a lot of pull and push on the down stroke. Almost stops at the peak of compression. I am pretty winded after cranking and I am a retired Marine. Almost takes two hands.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:49 pm**

All great suggestions, I will try it and let you know.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:08 pm**

tomdoc wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:48 pm
Hey Jerry, in order I will answer your questions. I have had the car for 10 years, and in general, she can be hand cranked, but I feel like I am fighting a lot of compression. Obviously, she doesn't like the cold and is much easier to start in the summer months.

1. It is much easier to crank when you jack up the rear and put it in gear.
2. I check the oil every time I drive and it is halfway between the two petcock valves. I have a glass sight.
3. It has always been difficult, but seems to be getting worse.
4. Like I said, it has been gradual, but worse over the last few years. Nothing has been done.
5. 30 weight oil.
6. 45 degrees maybe in the garage, but tough on a 60 degree day as well...same at 80 degrees in the summer.
7. I runs fairly well, needs a carb, but runs ok. Once in a while I lose compression when carbon builds on the exhaust valve, but when that is knocked off, it runs pretty good. That being said, not super strong up hill, she has always been kinda tired.
8. I can't get it to start right now, can't crank it fast enough I guess and I think there is too much torque for the electric starter...that being said, I may leave it jacked up and in gear and try again.
9. I can turn it over by hand, but it takes a lot of pull and push on the down stroke. Almost stops at the peak of compression. I am pretty winded after cranking and I am a retired Marine. Almost takes two hands.

It's sounding like maybe your high speed clutch is dragging. With the transmission in neutral, and engine is stopped, how hard is it to push the car? When you do so, does the engine turn over? If so, your high speed clutch is dragging.

Since I don't know how experienced you are with T's, I'll explain;
The high speed clutch is a multi-disc clutch, located inside the transmission brake drum. Alternatingly, half of the steel discs are driven by the brake drum, while the other half, (i.e. every other disc), is driven by the engine, (to put it simply). Those discs can warp or crack. They can also wear deep notches in the lugs of the brake drum, with which they engage. The clutch works by either squeezing the discs together, which engages "high" gear, or separating the discs, which allows for neutral, since the discs are not all clamped together. When deep notches are worn in the brake drum lugs, the discs remain "captured", or locked into those notches, preventing them from separating and allowing a free neutral. This can create the drag you're feeling.

There can also be some adjustment issues to consider. Others on the forum have some excellent graphics and "how to" with respect to those adjustments. Hopefully, someone can post that info as well. Always check the adjustments first, as it's easier than removing a transmission

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:06 pm**

You may have engaged transmission as well... just saying. You may just need to adjust the 3 fingers.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:28 pm**

I can turn it over by hand, but it takes a lot of pull and push on the down stroke.

DON'T DO THAT!!!
I'm shouting because I broke an arm that way, and it hurts like hell. I passed out on the ground and when I came to I drove to the hospital one-handed.

If you're starting on BAT you don't need to turn fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA

BUT it does help to have a rear wheel off the ground with the brake off so the engine can turn freely.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:18 pm**

I agree with Steve! This is how I do it. I use 10W30 oil which is a bit thinner in cold weather. When I get ready to start with a cold engine, I first open the fuel mixture valve(rotate counter clockwise about one turn). Put the spark lever up and pull down about 1/4 way on the throttle Then with the ignition switch off, I pull out the wire to choke the car and pull up on the crank one or two times. Then with the spark retarded, I turn on the switch to battery. Sometimes I get a free start. If I don't get the free start, I crank one pull up on the crank with left arm, stopping at the top and quickly lift my left arm up and away from the crank. If it doesn't start, I pull up again. It will usually start on battery by this procedure. If it doesn't start repeat. As soon as it starts, try to run around to the spark lever and advance as soon as possible and switch quickly to magneto.. Then as it warms up adjust the fuel mixture to find the sweet spot.
To adjust for a free neutral follow the instruction attached. If that doesn't free up the neutral, you might need to dig deeper into the clutch. When the neutral is adjusted right, you should be able to crank in neutral on a level surface without the car moving. And if you push the car in neutral, it will roll without turning the engine.
Norm

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:04 pm**

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:08 pm

tomdoc wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:48 pm
Hey Jerry, in order I will answer your questions. I have had the car for 10 years, and in general, she can be hand cranked, but I feel like I am fighting a lot of compression. Obviously, she doesn't like the cold and is much easier to start in the summer months.

1. It is much easier to crank when you jack up the rear and put it in gear.
2. I check the oil every time I drive and it is halfway between the two petcock valves. I have a glass sight.
3. It has always been difficult, but seems to be getting worse.
4. Like I said, it has been gradual, but worse over the last few years. Nothing has been done.
5. 30 weight oil.
6. 45 degrees maybe in the garage, but tough on a 60 degree day as well...same at 80 degrees in the summer.
7. I runs fairly well, needs a carb, but runs ok. Once in a while I lose compression when carbon builds on the exhaust valve, but when that is knocked off, it runs pretty good. That being said, not super strong up hill, she has always been kinda tired.
8. I can't get it to start right now, can't crank it fast enough I guess and I think there is too much torque for the electric starter...that being said, I may leave it jacked up and in gear and try again.
9. I can turn it over by hand, but it takes a lot of pull and push on the down stroke. Almost stops at the peak of compression. I am pretty winded after cranking and I am a retired Marine. Almost takes two hands.
It's sounding like maybe your high speed clutch is dragging. With the transmission in neutral, and engine is stopped, how hard is it to push the car? When you do so, does the engine turn over? If so, your high speed clutch is dragging.

Since I don't know how experienced you are with T's, I'll explain;
The high speed clutch is a multi-disc clutch, located inside the transmission brake drum. Alternatingly, half of the steel discs are driven by the brake drum, while the other half, (i.e. every other disc), is driven by the engine, (to put it simply). Those discs can warp or crack. They can also wear deep notches in the lugs of the brake drum, with which they engage. The clutch works by either squeezing the discs together, which engages "high" gear, or separating the discs, which allows for neutral, since the discs are not all clamped together. When deep notches are worn in the brake drum lugs, the discs remain "captured", or locked into those notches, preventing them from separating and allowing a free neutral. This can create the drag you're feeling.

There can also be some adjustment issues to consider. Others on the forum have some excellent graphics and "how to" with respect to those adjustments. Hopefully, someone can post that info as well. Always check the adjustments first, as it's easier than removing a transmission

When I put it in neutral, it is easy to push and the motor does not turn over...I'll try yours and the other suggestions! Thanks!

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:05 pm**

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:28 pm

I can turn it over by hand, but it takes a lot of pull and push on the down stroke.

DON'T DO THAT!!!
I'm shouting because I broke an arm that way, and it hurts like hell. I passed out on the ground and when I came to I drove to the hospital one-handed.

If you're starting on BAT you don't need to turn fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA

BUT it does help to have a rear wheel off the ground with the brake off so the engine can turn freely.

Don't worry, I know better! I do it with the switch off. I know how to crank so as not to break my arm or jas!

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:08 pm**

Norman Kling wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:18 pm
I agree with Steve! This is how I do it. I use 10W30 oil which is a bit thinner in cold weather. When I get ready to start with a cold engine, I first open the fuel mixture valve(rotate counter clockwise about one turn). Put the spark lever up and pull down about 1/4 way on the throttle Then with the ignition switch off, I pull out the wire to choke the car and pull up on the crank one or two times. Then with the spark retarded, I turn on the switch to battery. Sometimes I get a free start. If I don't get the free start, I crank one pull up on the crank with left arm, stopping at the top and quickly lift my left arm up and away from the crank. If it doesn't start, I pull up again. It will usually start on battery by this procedure. If it doesn't start repeat. As soon as it starts, try to run around to the spark lever and advance as soon as possible and switch quickly to magneto.. Then as it warms up adjust the fuel mixture to find the sweet spot.
To adjust for a free neutral follow the instruction attached. If that doesn't free up the neutral, you might need to dig deeper into the clutch. When the neutral is adjusted right, you should be able to crank in neutral on a level surface without the car moving. And if you push the car in neutral, it will roll without turning the engine.
Norm
Free Neutral.jpg

Good stuff, thanks!

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:45 pm**

Thomas, from your point no 7, 'needs a carb'. It sure does. If you fit one it will start a lot easier!!!!!

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:27 pm**

By all means DO NOT push down on the crank when trying to crank a T!!
When a Model T gets harder to start the temptation is to crank it harder and do whatever to crank it.
That’s the way to get a broken arm!!

You’ll want to do do anything to start it and you’ll get the temptation to advance the spark control. Broken arm, wrist, or shoulder can occur and probably will!

Good luck with getting your T running with the good advice that’s been posted. And be sure to NOT wrap your thumb around the crank handle when pulling the handle up to start it! If you wrap your thumb around the handle the crank can’t kick out even when cranking it correctly.
Good luck!

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:42 am**

Hi John,

After trying all advices, If you are not able to fix it for any reason ask Joe Bell or Hank. Both were able to fix that for sure. Sometime external help is appreciated.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:36 pm**

I have had the same issue with my '27. I am definitely not going to jack up a rear wheel whenever I decide to hand-crank it. If it actually takes that much effort to start a T, I'll find something else as a toy. I have hand-cranked many Ts, and none have been as hard to crank as mine. I have owned it for about eight years and I have never successfully hand-crank started it. The starter has trouble too.

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm**

You know, if it was always easy to crank, then all of the sudden became "stiff" or difficult, you may have other internal issues such as a slipped piston pin or hung up band...

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:16 pm**

Susanne wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm
You know, if it was always easy to crank, then all of the sudden became "stiff" or difficult, you may have other internal issues such as a slipped piston pin or hung up band...

The OP states, "It has always been difficult, but seems to be getting worse."

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:26 pm**

I hesitate to ask but do you suppose you are getting weaker? My suggestion would be to find another club member in your area and try cranking their car and let them crank yours. Compare the difficulty cranking. If yours is much harder to crank, then continue to search for problems in your engine and transmission.
Norm

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:29 pm**

An older friend of mine that has now passed on had an 11 that when hot you could not crank it, it got to where even cold you had issues with it. It was a newer rebuild from some one else than me, I tore it down and two piston's had scores on them. The pistons name was Izumi and two of them was over size by .005 than the other two, the skirts where all galded up, I honed it replaced the pistons with the new ones that Snyder's carry and they where all exact size for the bore and problem was solved.

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:04 pm**

Norman Kling wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:18 pm
When I get ready to start with a cold engine, I first open the fuel mixture valve(rotate counter clockwise about one turn).

Is this much mixture richening typical for Model Ts? I only have long experience with my '23 with an NH. It only wants about an 1/8 of a turn.

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:37 pm**

Each T is different and the carburetors are different. I have 3 T's and they are all different. You can try with 1/8 turn. That way it is less likely to flood. If it needs more, try 1/4 turn and when you find the best spot. Remember it or if you have several T's you might even write a note and put under the floormat or seat.
Norm

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