UNUSUAL T BODY

[Liberty Garage]

I was wondering if anyone has ever seen the body type in the attached pictures. The car has been in our family since 1958 and was acquired at that time from an elderly gentleman who claimed it was used by Standard Oil in the oilfields The body is on a car chassis and is a match to the one pictured in "Henry's Wonderful Model T" page 78 top of page. The cowl appears to be Canadian as their are indentations on the drivers side that indicate were hinges may have been if it had a door. The box has all the original forged hardware which resembles "Martin Perry" hardware. It has been stuck in our barn for the last 30 years and I recently pulled it out.
Thanks

[jiminbartow]

Hi Steven. Nice T. Just a cautionary note. It is not good for the rear axle to jack it from under the pumpkin. To do so causes undue stress and could possibly bend the right and left shafts downwards. Better to jack one side, or the other. If you need both wheels raised to work under the car, it is better and safer to use jack stands close to each wheel. Stay safe and enjoy your T. Jim Patrick

[Allan]

Steven, another clue to Canadian built bodies is the use of wood screws with square holes in the head for driving them. These are Robinson screws. Henry would not use those in US production.

Allan from down under.

[Oldav8tor]

Looks like a buggy seat.... neat vehicle anyway.

If you plan to get your T running you will have plenty of need to lift the wheels with a jack. I made a lifting cradle for my floor jack that lets me lift the whole front or rear of the car without damage. It makes it easier to set it on jack stands as well. It's held on by a bolt so you can easily swap it for the original bracket.

[jiminbartow]

Great idea Tim.

[Liberty Garage]

Its not a buggy seat!!! If you would look at the picture in the book I referenced you would be able to see the bodies are identical. No robinson screws in the body all slotted. I had jacked the car up to move to take a picture. I have been involved with T's for over 60 years and a member of the MTFCA since 1967 (member #2957) and I am pretty sure I know how to jack up a Model T. I see it all the time on this forum where somebody asks a legitimate question and the know it all's have to jump in and go completely off topic. You should mind your own business!! I will ask the forum coordinator to take down my post.

[Oldav8tor]

Steven, I don't know anything about you or your experience. I have only been involved with Model T's since 2018 but have benefited from the advice and examples of others. Just trying to pass it on. Sorry if you took offense.

I didn't say it was a buggy seat, only that it looked like one. Indeed, as a kid we had a horse drawn buckboard with an almost identical seat.

[FreighTer Jim]

Calm Down Steve

You asked for comments - you got them.

If you don’t like that - don’t post.


FJ

[Novice]

Stephen. I enjoyed Your post and pictures of Your truck looks a lot like My open express. I also liked the jack stand Tim posted. but unless You are going to leave it jacked up in the center for a prolonged period I don't see a problem. But then I am a newbie got My first T in 2017 at 73. My truck was also made from a roadster or touring. no door on left side just cut metal and metal tabs bend around for a bracket. You can still see holes for door hinges on the right side.

[DanTreace]

Steven

Interesting body alright. The Ford TT steel open cab bodies did have doors on both sides, so the body could be from one of those.

Or something else altogether. Many farm trucks were made from car cowl, cut down, and the normal driver's side body panel was usually cut at the fake door line and wrapped down a wood upright and tacked in place.

Took your photos and turned up the lights, so to see the details. And yes, the from the body side view, there are traces of the similar TT body shown on page 78 in "wonderful Model T" book.

TT on page 78.

Of course the body could be from a TT with the 2 doors. Or could be made from a touring car panel, the Canadian T's had a driver's door, that could be the source of the 'hinge' like door jam on your cute farm truck. Or could have been a special body just as the new TT was appearing in late 1917 for the 1918 model year. This is a similar looking body, on a TT assumed to be used by the factory.

[Allan]

The lack of Robinson screws may indicate that the body was not of Canadian origin.

Allan from down under.

[jiminbartow]

Hi Steven. I was somewhat taken aback at your response and sincerely apologize if I offended you. I am not aware of your experience with the T, but if you have been around them for 60 years, which is ten years longer than me, I am not qualified to tell you how to do anything with your T. You have earned that respect.

While I appreciate your compliment that I am a “know it all”, I am far from it. I have been reading and participating on the forum for 20 years, since 2000, which, again, is way less than you and I have always read on the forum, many posts regarding the inadvisability of jacking the rear end from under the pumpkin, however, if that is wrong, and everything I have read on the forum, regarding this, posted by people much smarter than me, is incorrect, I stand corrected and withdraw my advice.

I pose this as a serious question to you... “Is it okay and safe for the integrity of the rear end to jack the rear end with the jack positioned under the pumpkin?” If it is okay, I welcome that advice, for it requires less work to jack the rear end from the center, rather than jacking and blocking one side at a time. Thank you, in advance, for the benefit of your experience. Respectfully submitted, Jim Patrick

[jiminbartow]

Dan. Very observant. I can see many of the similarities to the TT to which you refer however, I like the look of Steven’s T truck, with the full running board and splash shield running the length of the truck from the front fender to the rear fender, a lot more than the regular TT with its’ single running board step. If Ford would have offered Steven’s style truck, I’m sure it would have been very popular, for it looks great and would be very utilitarian in the working and farming environment just as it must have been in the oil fields. Jim Patrick

PS. Looking at the MTFCA encyclopedia (old version), it appears that the first year Ford offered a truck with full running boards and splash shields, similar to Steven’s truck, only with doors, instead of open sides, was in 1925:
See: www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1925.htm

[DanTreace]

Jim

My observations are only the photos, and clearly can’t ascertain details of Steven’s nice truck. Just in my experience farm trucks made from car chassis and using the metal cowls from ‘15-‘25 open cars have those cut down side panels wrapped at the door hinge side over the body structure.

The TT examples have what appears as sheet metal continuing pass the door transom, and up the side to form a completed structure. Steven’s seems to have wood structure forming the seat base, that would suggest to me as made from Ford cowl, and builder finished the rest in wood including the nicely made bed. Of course in the day, lots of carriage makers provided iron works for hinges, flare board side metal upright stays and other pieces for making wood pickup beds and trailers. Just my observing of the Steven’s photos that the low cowl sections came from a Ford, maybe section of a ‘18-‘23 open TT C cab, a ‘15-‘23 USA open car or Canadian open car cowl.

As for jacking up only the center of a later T rear axle at the pumpkin, I find that isn’t detrimental, IMO, do it sometimes to scoot a chassis from the rear across the garage floor. Most times just jack outboard of the backing plate for wheel work.

Certainly would never jack at the differential only on an early pressed steel center or the 12 and 6 rivet rear axle center of a 1914 and earlier!

[TeveS-Nor Cal]

Looks like a very fun car/truck. ENJOY! Most of the Martin Perry hardware has their name or MP on it. Hard to come by!

[Liberty Garage]

More pictures of the body. The body is completely steel. The only wood is the sills.

[DanTreace]

Steven

Thanks for the additional photos, those show a lot of details. Curious these details sort of match up with the experimental or first early TT's in 1917.

Ford made several as noted in this article that were used as trials for the new TT with long heavy frame, springs, and worm drive.

Here is the article:

And photo of one of the several TT's that were being used, perhaps more were made with that cowl body in steel and the buckboard style seat??




And the detail of your body seems to have large head rivets, same as that can be lightly seen in this scan from a newspaper article.

Image 1-18-21 at 8.12 PM.jpeg (58.59 KiB) Viewed 2563 times

Only coincidence, or perhaps your truck body is one of these early TT bodies? Your body seems to have the same rivet head, about in the same place too.


There was a least one aftermarket maker of pick up beds, in all metal, so maybe there was some maker of cowl type bodies with metal seat riser like yours. Just haven't yet seen a adv. or name of a maker, that could have supplied your truck body.

Steven's truck.jpg (92.29 KiB) Viewed 2563 times

[Liberty Garage]

Dan: You have given me a wealth of information on this body. Thanks for all your research. I have attached a few photos of the wooden pickup bed showing the original hardware. The side casting has a number 96LLI That is the only markings I can find on the hardware.
thanks again steve

[DanTreace]

Steven

Your newest photos do show a high end quality build. The irons on the rear wood bed outboard structure going back to the frame is a unique feature, along with all the metal trim on the ends of all the flare boards. And the all-metal of the upright seat back, plus the metal of the seat frame and riser in your earlier photos.

Can't confirm, but H.H. Babcock built high end bodies, and they made the earlier center door sedans for Ford, and later many mfg. too, including Dodge. They were known to build truck bodies for T and TT, some open styles in the late 'teens and 'twenties. So, maybe your body is a Babcock. Could be.

Image 1-21-21 at 10.02 PM.jpeg (75.61 KiB) Viewed 2265 times

Image 1-21-21 at 10.11 PM.jpeg (72.14 KiB) Viewed 2265 times

Image 1-21-21 at 10.12 PM.jpeg (51.39 KiB) Viewed 2265 times

[Dan Haynes]

Not that it means anything, Steve, but it was common practice to put your chain hooks in from the bottom, to keep them from bouncing out on rough roads.