MTFCA Forum

The old roller timer on my 26 Coupe wore out and left me on the side of the road. So, I installed a New Day Timer. As the engine is running the timer rocks around. I assume that the brush is pushing it outward as it turns? Should there be a plate between timer and the timing cover? There currently is not one there. What is the distance from the mounting surface to the brush surface supposed to be? I am wondering if it is too short? I doubt that the brush could be too long?

Could be simple, the clamp is too loose that holds it in place, not enough tension. Could be bent or just too loose. Try that first. The brush is spring loaded so should float. Most people run without the plate behind it anyway.

Could also be the timing cover has/was never centered using the proper centering tool.

Mark Gregush wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:06 pm

Could be simple, the clamp is too loose that holds it in place, not enough tension. Could be bent or just too loose. Try that first. The brush is spring loaded so should float. Most people run without the plate behind it anyway.

If you are using original style felt seal at the cam, you must run with the brass shield.

Otherwise the timer brush rotor will dig in the felt and jam up, causing issues too.

Scott,
I measured two spare timers I have, which are nearly new. The distance from the bottom edge to the surface where the brush rides measured 813" and .818"

You can get a good idea of how much they've been resurfaced by comparing that measurement to the distance from the wire terminal to the edge.
Bill Coyle

If the engine has a fiber timing gear, it might be that the cam nut is preventing the brush body from seating back against the shoulder on the cam.
Look to see if the arm on the brush is hitting the end of the cam nut. If it is, you can narrow the arm width and allow the brush to move farther toward the rear. This will allow the timer to not be pushed forward by the rotating brush. Because fiber cam timing gears have a much thicker hub than stock gears, the cam nut can be shifted forward causing issues like this.

Getting the timer in a firm but not to tight fit can fool you.
You might need to bend the arm that holds it on just a bit for a tighter fit.

Remember that the arm bolt feels really tight when you just tightening down the bolt and arm but if it’s not bent enough it’s not really pushing down firm on the timer to hold the timer firmly in place.

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:58 pm

If the engine has a fiber timing gear, it might be that the cam nut is preventing the brush body from seating back against the shoulder on the cam.

About 95% of the time, if a newly installed New Day Timer is rocking around it is caused by exactly what Dan stated. It will also tear the contact face of the timer up real quick.

A loose timer retainer spring is definitely a possibility but would be easy to see & feel with the engine turned off (just try wiggling the timer fore & aft.

The arm is holding it good and firm against the cover.

My timer measured right around .820 from the mounting surface to the contacts. The timer and brush assembly are both EBay purchases, so no idea what could have been done to them in the past. They do both look good.

I do not know if the gear is fiber, or not. But, I have a feeling that you hit the nail right on the head! I thought, when I tightened down the nut, that something did not feel right. I think that the nut is probably trying to compressing the brush assembly. I will take a closer look at that when I get some time.

I've come across this sort of problem before, turned out that the end of the cam shaft was bent.

I will check the snout of the cam shaft run out too, but I doubt that is it. I never noticed it with the roller timer.

There have already been some good comments so I'll only add a couple thoughts not covered. If there is a fiber timing gear, you can plainly see that the cam nut extends past the shoulder on the cam (unless the gear installer trimmed the nut down). This cam shoulder is what the brush sits against. Some brushes have an OD smaller than the ID of the cam nut, so this isn't even a problem (TW, for example). An original New Day brush may need a small notch filed on the backside of the arm to clear the edge of the cam nut and allow proper seating of the brush against the cam shoulder. I've attached a photo showing where to put the notch in red (I believe the original un-doctored photo is Steve's). For re-assurance, you can measure the compressed height of the brush from the timing cover face and compare to the timer, but this is easiest done with the radiator removed.

What Dan and Nick posted is correct. I figured this one out over 50 years ago!

You guys are 100% correct! As you can see in the picture, the brush assembly needed to be notched to clear the cam nut and that it does still have the felt seal with out the shield. I had another brush assembly that was already notched, so I swapped them. I tried to install an aftermarket shield, but it did not fit right. The brush assembly compressed and distorted it. The timing gear cover may not be centered properly, or the shield is not the correct diameter? I think that I should probably install seal?

A simple fix! That’s a good deal. Sometimes we make it harder than it really is. Seems like that was discussed in tinkering tips years ago.

Scott, glad it worked out. I would put a seal in like you said. -Nik

I have a couple of NOS new day timers. The correct dimension from the outer edge of the timer cover to the face of the timer (where the brush rubs against) is exactly 13/16" (.8125) on both of the units I have. Watch out for the "S" models since those timers often have poor materials and bad dimensions in a few places. The back edge of the brush sleeve should slide back until it rests against the shoulder on the cam. The wobbling timer cover is an old old issue that has come up many times and the part that is out of spec and causing it is that the cam gear hub is too thick by about .100" so the cam nut is forward of where it is supposed to be. This then has the brush forward of where it is supposed to be. If you drive the car more than a few miles that way you best take along your cell phone and know somebody with a trailer since you will destroy your NEW DAY timer. I had this problem on my T this same way some 20+ years ago and found out the ultimate problem was the maker of the cam gear changed the hub thickness. I had the issue right after I started up my car after an engine rebuild that included a new cam gear.

Sorry that this problem is still being revisited that was shown to have occurred so long ago.

When I put a New Day on my 26 touring it was doing the Hula when the engine was running. I tried to bend the arm that holds the timer, but it didn't want to bend. So I ordered two brass shields, cut out the middle for the seal. The two brass shields was enough to bring out the New Day so the brush had room enough to rotate without making the timer Hula.

The timer is nice and stable now with the notched brush assembly.

Yes, the brass shield was contacting the cam nut. I could probably enlarge the center hole and install it. But, I am leaning towards installing a modern lip seal.

OK..After reading this, my issue is becoming clearer...timer seal problems post...If the cam nut shoulder extends out, this is what the seal will go over, and not the camshaft snout itself. If this is the case, will the seal actually do any good at all? Would you have to put a seal between the camshaft nut shoulder and the camshaft snout to hold the oil in? My camshaft nut extends out like Scott"s.

Very little if any oil would get past the threaded part where the cam gear retaining nut screws onto the cam shaft. The seal in the front cover rides on the cam nut which needs to be smooth (like any sealing surface no pits or grooves). There would be enough room along the surface of that nut for the seal in the front cover to ride on anywhere along it's length. How far out the nut sticks past were, in this case, the new day timer brush assembly needs to seat has nothing to do with sealing. My suggestion would be to get one of the shorter cam gear nuts. The cam gear shown does look a little thicker and the nut may be extending more then it needs to past where the brush assemble needs to seat.

Mark Gregush wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:20 am

Very little if any oil would get past the threaded part where the cam gear retaining nut screws onto the cam shaft. The seal in the front cover rides on the cam nut which needs to be smooth (like any sealing surface no pits or grooves). There would be enough room along the surface of that nut for the seal in the front cover to ride on anywhere along it's length. How far out the nut sticks past were, in this case, the new day timer brush assembly needs to seat has nothing to do with sealing. My suggestion would be to get one of the shorter cam gear nuts. The cam gear shown does look a little thicker and the nut may be extending more then it needs to past where the brush assemble needs to seat.

Does the seal normally ride on the camshaft nut shoulder, or on the shaft that goes through it? Is the seals purpose to seal out the oil that is in the timing cover area? Thanks for clarification for me. Tommy

If you look at the picture that I posted of mine, you can see the felt seal rides on the nut.

Scott C. wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:54 am

If you look at the picture that I posted of mine, you can see the felt seal rides on the nut.

Thanks..I looked initially and didn't notice the seal. Now it is clear. Thanks..Case closed.