Windsor Maroon

[SurveyKing]

I am hoping that either the MTFCA or MTFCI have come up with an acceptable modern paint code for Windsor Maroon used in 1926-27 closed cars. I have a friend that wants to paint his car with single stage urethane in Windsor Maroon.

If someone recently went thru this process, please let me know what brand and color code would he need to look for? PPG? Nason?

[varmint]

Maybe this will help:
https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcoded ... 27&rows=50
but they call it "Royal Maroon".

[SurveyKing]

Vernon, Windsor Maroon, I am told, is almost brown, that color for Royal Maroon is reddish color, so maybe that is not a match. How did you determine Royal Maroon was a match?

[TWrenn]

Yeh, from the picture that was given within that link, of that T, that is no way Windsor Maroon.
Here's my Fordor that, as I was told, was indeed painted Windsor Maroon. It's gorgeous.

[StanHowe]

I like that, Tim!!

[DHort]

The royal maroon that Vern shows in his post above is a brown maroon when you go under Ford and 1927. The other royal maroon on that page is a red maroon - you are correct on that.

[SurveyKing]

Hi Tim, That is a nice Sedan. Is that in Urethane Enamel single stage by chance? If so, would you mind giving me the paint brand and code you used? Thanks

[jiminbartow]

Tim. “It’s a daisy”, “the cat’s meow” and the bees knees”. Jim Patrick

[varmint]

To say that Royal Maroon and Windsor Maroon are a match would be an assumption. I have not determined that they do match.
However, if you look at our encyclopedia http://mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#paint1
it suggests...well I'll let you see.

[TWrenn]

Thanks to all for the comments. "He".. I named him "Stanley"...definitely turns heads, rides nice, keeps me warm in spring and fall!

Dan, still looking. I did email you as you may have seen by now. I'll keep in touch that way.

[jab35]

Daniel: If you can get hold of Don Booth in MI he should know, he's done a number of these late T's and shared much of it on the forum. best, jb

[TWrenn]

Check ur email Dan. Found the painters name and number at least.

[George Mills]

The issue with Windsor Maroon is that the prize goes to Tim Wren...but nobody else will probably want to hear it.

Yes the Ford sales stuff shows a reddish maroon...but 100 years under varnish and the professional conservator will tell you that you have to back off the 'yellow' component by at least 50%, usually more. I imagine it would still be redidish but murky and muddy looking as by 1926 the commercial red pigment additive was no longer China red but mostly Iron Oxide.

Before it takes a life of its own, keep in mind that those colors that wound up in the Encylopedia were not done all that scientific. It was a bunch of guys who looked around and took a consensus as to what sounded good to stop the bickering. I have that first hand from one of the participants on the MTFCA side who has since departed us. I also have it that the MTFCI Chief judge of the era took it to be a lose guide and never an accepted 'law'. I know that as at the time I lobbied within MTFCI for there to be a 'these colors will have no deductions' ...others will' rule and failed in my plea as those involved wanted nothing to do with a color standard!

I'll state one fact that everyone overlooks....

Maroon as we know it now being in the RED family did NOT start the mental association as we know it until 1948...some small company called Crayola decided to call one of their colors Maroon (Most of the Crayola extended colors are arbitrary BTW). In 1926-1927 the definition of a 'maroon' was in the TAUPE family, which by definition would have made it somewhat mousey. (No offense Tim I actually like it)

Color within MTFCA is not meant to be factual...the safety in numbers crowd prevails in light of no chemical formula surviving and that is fair enough with me. (Back to my approved color plea when this whole thing was hashed out way back when). I have probably more scientific proof than anyone else that 1909 red was not Carmine as many have done their cars, and certainly was not done in Coca-Cola red as many Stynoski winners have been colored...but the closest match actually would be plain old McCormick/IHC red! If I redid an '09? I'd certainly go with Coca-Cola red, it is THAT nice, the science be damned...and I do think thats what that group who did the color list wanted to achieve (Although one senior member, now deceased did say to me that he was sorry that he ever agreed to the summation, and even more sorry that is was not edited differently in the 'Bible')

For what its worth...find a 26 that is maroon that you like the color....go for it...as I said, safety in numbers is a stronger hand than trying to follow the science.

[varmint]

The drivers door on our '26 coupe is rust on the outside and multiple shades of dark green on the inside and at the A pillar. We will repaint the coupe a dark green that we like. However, the door jam and inside we will just clear coat to preserve whatever is there. The engine was slime green as we found it and was repainted slime green. We also found non-original dark green flower print material interior and may go back to that instead of stripes.

Maroon? It is just my opinion without fact that Henry, when moving from enamel to pyroxlin had no intention of creating more colors. I believe he was trying to duplicate existing colors and especially not another maroon which he already had. The new maroon probably did not match and instead of spending more money on an exact color copy, he opted to come up with a new name instead. Perhaps, he was successful but the new formula was just too cost prohibitive. Honestly, I think the color you are going for is way more handsome than green.

[SurveyKing]

Does anyone have contact information for Don Booth in Michigan? I'd like to talk to him about his Windsor Maroon. Thanks

[TWrenn]

Hey George!
Thanks for the nice comment, and nope, no offense taken!! One thing I prescribe to, is one man's (or all man's) right to his/her opinion! Lord knows that attitude has certainly gotten me in a lot of hot water, but at least people know where I stand!!

Anyway, speaking of Crayola crayons...did you know they were made "right here" (well a bit north of me) in Sandusky, Ohio? I'm not 100% sure, but maybe even were born there? And, a lot of people are unaware, that I believe beginning in 1914, virtually all of the little wood boxes that house the guts of our beloved coils, were also made right there in that Crayon plant! How cool is (er, was) that! Of course, long ago, the plant went South to good ol' Mexico (Mehico..lol) and never came back. It's been torn down.

Dan, I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help on the paint code. If you haven't thought of it, maybe you could contact PPG direct, via their website, maybe they could help. If you're not in a huge hurry, as I mentioned earlier, my offer to take my car to my paint store and have them match it via that little machine of theirs still stands. Trouble is, it'll be April before I can do it. Rotsa Ruck my friend!

[jab35]

Daniel: I'm sure Don has posted here recently, within the last month or two on his current project, a '27 fordoor? from Syracuse, NY. My search didn't find it, which is strange, but I'm no expert in this search stuff. Best, jb

[jab35]

Daniel: A little more info: https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=16118

Don is fordorgalore on this forum, you should be able to send a private message via the forum, jb

[modeltspaz]

Rather interesting that they used the photo of my '26 touring as an example for the green in the link posted above by Vern.
That photo was featured in an article about the final years of Model T production. I can't recall which magazine it was in, but the article came out sometime in 2000.
The photographer wasn't from the area, so he wanted to use a home or building built sometime in the late 20's or early 30's. I had him follow me to the center of Downey.
The first street we drove down we saw the house in the photo. Spanish revival, ribbon driveway, the works. The residents were more than happy to let us use it.

[A Whiteman]

I heard why a friend's car is called Mr Bean.

Because it is red - closer to crimson than maroon ('scarlet') and it goes (is a 'Runner') = 'scarlet runner' which to those not gardening is a variety of BEAN.

Name donated by his teenagers - so it seems youth does have a sense of humour too!

[jiminbartow]

Tim’s Fordor looks more like “Merlot” than maroon. If I were to paint my ‘26 Fordor, I would go with the maroon. Though the maroon pictured here is brighter than what Ford probably originally used, I prefer it to the darker color. I agree with George Mills. While it is nice to be as original as possible, if you don’t like the color that is deemed to be orignal, what is the point in painting your restored T a color that is not your preferred choice. To me, it is better to paint your T a pleasing shade that you like that is close to the original. For all we know, it may be closer to the original than the darker colors that, so called, “experts” claim to be original, even though the original color sample that they are using has substantially darkened with age to a very dark shade of a lighter, brighter, original. Jim Patrick

PS. A good example of painting your T with close to original colors you like, instead of undesirable original colors you don’t is the engine color. While nobody is really sure what green the 1926 original engine color was, the first engine picture represents the color a lot of people think is the original color. I think it is called “moleskin”. I don’t happen to like it, so I painted my engine with a high heat engine paint from Snyder’s called “Ford Green Engine Paint”, which I like. For all we know, it may be the original Ford engine paint color. Since nobody is really sure, your guess and choice is as good as mine.

7940F47E-890D-4A44-9DD5-41F2732495E1.jpeg (22.16 KiB) Viewed 2710 times

[SurveyKing]

Thanks James, I sent him an email. As far as the color, we want the darker Merlot color you have identified on your color chart. Those designations are they not modern ones?

[jiminbartow]

Not really sure. As far as I know, maroon has always been maroon and merlot has always been merlot, the color the wine was named after.

I tend to think some folks claim that there is a modern color chart and an older color chart, but I don’t believe that is that case. At least not in any realm other than the Model T realm. It may just be a ploy to justify why Windsor maroon is so much darker than what is normally recognized as maroon. My mother used to do a lot of sewing and had a lot of old antique fabric with which to make period correct pillows and upholstery. Among her samples was a yard of antique velvet from the early 1900’s still in the package that was labeled “maroon”. It was the exact same color as the maroon in my posted color sample, so I don’t believe there is an old maroon and a modern maroon. Both are one in the same. There is no reason for it other than to reinforce an argument. JimPatrick

[Steve Jelf]

Here are the formula numbers Bruce gives in the encyclopedia.