MTFCA Forum

I have a question regarding oil pan styles. I have a Canadian ‘13 built in around September/October of 1912, and documented sold new in Tavistock Ontario in late November of 1912. My car has had a later snub nose pan in it since the 1920’s. You can see it in this photo dating from 1929. I have two, narrow snout pans both with the teacup drain. One pan has seven rivet ears, the other has three rivet ears. Can anyone verify if one of these would be correct for my car? Engine number B-872. I have Bruce McCalley’s book but can’t seem to find the info I seek. Thanks in advance!

The 7 rivet is the one I’d use.

Per Bruce in the 1912 section:

Typical “three dip” with narrow front
“snout.” The “seven-rivet” mounting arms were
replaced with “three-rivet” arms during the year.

In the 1913 section he wrote:

ENGINE PAN: Early production used the “three dip”
with narrow front “snout” and “teacup” oil drain. The
mounting arms were held with three rivets instead of
seven. The drain plug was now 15/16” hex-head instead
of a slotted screw. The “tea cup” drain pocket was
discontinued late in the year.

Many thanks guys, I tend to think the seven rivet pan is the one I should use but I find that what Bruce wrote was confusing to me. When in 1912 did they start making the change? No disrespect to Bruce’s book but the info is vague unless I’m missing something.

My 1913 engine with casting date in Dec. 1912 has the 3 rivet pan. Second pictures has the aftermarket 2nd tie rod sitting on it that I was testing the fit and did not come with this car.

I have a late slab side '12 touring and it has the 7 rivet ears. My car was restored many years ago from a complete original car so there is no reason to suspect that the pan is anything but original.

Check out these 3 links. First two have info on 1912 and 1913 change dates. Very informative.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1366272937

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1366277786

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1366279032


Only thing I wonder about, is if the changes for Canadian cars happened as "fast" as those in the US. As well of the using up of older parts stock first, before new parts were used as the old part stocks depleted.

Darren, my Haighs chocolate van motor, assembled on 26 Sept, 1912, is engine number B 597. The very rusty and unusable pan on it when found had 3 rivet ears. I salvaged these to fit one as a replacement on the pan I eventually used in the restoration.

Allan from down under.

My January 13, 1913 has the three rivet pan ears....

Joe,

Is your January 1913 car all original?
Does it have the little circle in the nose like in the picture here?

havnfun wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:13 pm

My January 13, 1913 has the three rivet pan ears....

Mark Herdman did a wonderful job sorting out and describing the continuous changes in model T pans!
Thank you Mark H wherever you are!

In short. A lot of relatively minor yet significant changes were made during 1912 and early 1913 model years. The big one everyone obsesses over is of course three rivet or seven rivet pan arms. But the other one on the pan arms themselves is the "foot" that sits on top of the frame rail. The earlier pans had a significant taper on that "foot". The outer end of it had very small bumps either side of the bolt hole in the center of the "foot". The inner part where the "arm" bends to hang down below the frame has the more extreme folds like all pans before or since. AllTpans after 1912 had reenforcing folds that were roughly the same across the width of the frame rail.
Mark Herdman posted a very good photo of the tapered foot on this thread, third photo down;
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1366277786

The front nose casting also changed about this time. It actually went through a few minor changes before and after. The basic earlier nose casting was longer, and surrounded the drain hole in the nose just forward of the oil dam. The later (still narrow nose) style had a shorter casting, that circled only the forward part of that drain hole.

It used to be said that the change from seven rivet to three rivet arms was a basically single change in the pans, that all these changes happened at once.
It seems that these changes were a bit more haphazard than that. I have a few narrow nose pans. Two of them are early three rivet pans, with features generally attributed to seven rivet pans. I don't have any seven rivet pans. Both of my two earlier pans have the earlier style nose casting, surrounding the drain hole. One of them has the tapered feet. I figure these are crossover era pans, late 1912 model year into early 1913 model year.
I also have a "tea cup" pan with the three rivet arms, and the shorter nose casting. A more typical 1913 pan.

Darren W, Your family T is a known early 1913 model, built in late calendar 1912. It really should not have the typical 1913 pan with three rivet arms with later flat feet, and the short nose casting. But that is my opinion. Almost anyone would think it correct with the typical 1913 pan. I am not sure it really should have the seven rivet pan either. But again, almost anyone would think it correct, and it may really be correct. And of course that 'Canadian may be slightly different' thing does come into play. A good dozen data points of Canadian Ts from about August 1912 into December 1912 would help. And Allan B's chocolate van does give one data point (I know he has been very particular about what is correct on that 1912 van he is so rightfully proud of!).

With the two pans you have as options? And given the family history and desire to make it as right as you can? If your three rivet pan has the short (later) nose casting? I think I would go along with Kim Dobbins and say use the seven rivet one. Really cannot go wrong there.

I really do appreciate all the great educated responses here. Please continue if you have something to contribute! Thank you everyone!

Just to give you an idea about how much 1912 and 1913 my car is, here's a list of everything that I have noted and remember.
1912:
Steering column with offset support hole and rubber knobs on throttle and spark levers, two piece steering wheel wood, and two keyways
Stewart all brass model 26 speedo complete setup, cast iron swivel, No. 22 Stewart block letter wheel gear.
Jno Brown 19 all brass lights, 3rd variation, according to Bill Glass
Jno Brown 105 all brass tail light
Nonpareil double twist horn... you can just barely see the two parts of the "horseshoe" support bracket in my 1929 photo
E&J all brass cowl lights
1912 wood wheels, screws holding the felloe to the rim, not rivets
1912 drag link threaded both ends
Billed front fenders with Canadian double bead
Running boards with "Ford" running sideways facing you.
3 hole bolt spacing for all brass Victor generator or an E&J type. This was missing but I have located an all brass Victor
Heinze wood coil box now. Car had a 1913 metal Canadian replacement style, probably changed out really early in it's life.
Top irons, very thinly made locating nubs to lock irons together when in the down position
Engine is B-872 There are no casting dates on head or block, Ford logo on transmission cover
Carb is a Holley H-1
Two piece dash shield on floorboard and wood firewall
Car was originally pinstriped on body...you could still see it in 1989, sadly, out of my control, car was repainted....

1913:
Radiator, has gas line soldered to rad, and Canadian ID tag
Body, with back door body supports installed later
Top
All leather original upholstery including arm rests
Early all brass windshield with brass supports to body.

This is all I can remember off the top of my head.

This is what the car looked like in 1989. Was still all original in these photos.

Pictures from July 1956 and onward. The last picture is from 1959, when the car went to Toronto, covered in black shoe polish and won 1st prize for the most original Ford at the Toronto CNE antique car show.

Darker pic of newspaper clipping from 1950's

Darren, my engine no B597 does have casting date. It is located on the narrow edge of the block above the engine number boss and between the top of the block. It was quite corroded and I could not read it when I restored it. A later coolant weep took off the paint and then the corrosion at that point, and I could then make out some of the figures, but not enough to read the date. The transmission shaft showed an assembly date of 9 26 12.

Allan from down under.