MTFCA Forum

I see where there is currently a thread by Mark Gregush regarding a rare 1926/27 engine block without a serial and I was curious as to how would one go about evenly stamping the numbers into the block without getting them all crooked. However it is done would need to be a foolproof method for one could not afford to make a mistake. You would first need to find a set of antique number stamps of the correct font and size that Ford used. I was thinking that, one could make a guide by making a tracing of an 8 number factory stamped serial number and, using this tracing, make a straight template of the numbers by taking a piece of hardwood and drawing a straight line across the bottom and top of the 8 numbers then a horizontal line exactly through the center then a vertical line through the center of each number and using a center punch, indent a pilot hole in the exact center of each number and drill 8 holes just big enough for the number stamp to fit. Once done you would secure the template over the area above the water inlet so that it can’t move then slide each number into its’ specified hole and strike it hard making sure the stamp was right side up and straight. Considering the rarity of a block without a serial number, I would encourage Mark to rebuild this engine, as I am sure there are a lot of ‘26/‘27 T owners in search of just such a block to install in their T’s to make it a matching number car. Jim Patrick

It seems you are over thinking it, Ford never did, just smack those numbers in.

There is a Service Bulletin that covers how to do this. If you can think of a question of how to do something, there is most likely a Service Bulletin that covers it. Dan

I have never seen the numbers straight on a block.
On my frame the numbers are in a semicircle.
Seeing that thread, I fought myself three times from commenting about putting a matching number on the block because that is the practice but it was not clear in the thread that the engine actually came from a car, rather, a loose engine.

They weren't straight.

Nothing looks less authentic than perfectly stamped engine numbers. They were always stamped with some variation, some look pretty straight, others look like a 2 year old did it. Do it as Henry did it, one individual stamp at a time.

I don’t think Ford used a holder of some sort to keep the numbers straight other than a guy stamping individual numbers by hand.
The stamp employee would line the numbers one at a time and smack the die and that was it.
I’ve had several blocks over the years and none of numbers were perfectly straight.
Some were straighter than others but not perfectly uniform.

I can imagine a guy with a clip board going down the list to keep the block numbers in order and another guy stamping the numbers. But maybe it was done another way.

Factory stamps varied, but some are fairly nice, on this photo the skilled stamper is using a metal guide, for a very important engine, all other stamping was free hand, typically with a skilled worker on that task.

Here is the dedicated stamping worker in 1915, one view shows his box containing metal numeral stamps, and the other shows the same worker stamping the numbers on the block. Likely chosen for ability to hit the hammer blow correctly for a deep stamp that is placed best he can.


Ford Service, showing wood box of stamps. Have done blocks with Harbor Freight 1/4" high numeral stamp set, works fine. You have to have a good hard swing, but the iron block takes the imprint OK. Just don't use numerals with serifs on the ends, as those are old time looking, but Ford didn't use that font style on T serial stamps.

not straight and a double strike

straight, not quite perfect

After stamping hundreds of numbers the guy would get pretty good at doing it. Practice makes perfect or almost!

I agree, levels of skill varied. Some numbers are straight and even, others not so much.

This guy got a couple of digits upside down.

Stamped blocks being uniform would be a dead giveaway that they’ve been altered. There were devices back then that could have done that automatically. I would guess they debated whether cost effective compared to an individual man doing it all day long. That would be another brutal job there! Another factor was probably the pressure of a strike of that many numbers was perhaps too much risk of cracking a block.
When you look at a lot of blocks, you can certainly tell if a rookie did it, possibly just an uncaring or lazy person, or a person that really had some skill and dedication. A skilled person could use a couple stamps at a strike , and those blocks stick out too, with numbers grouped together. This hand stamping carried into Model A production, but they seem to be a bit more uniform.
Thanks for the posting of those great pics.

Reproduction Ford stamps are available.

That is an UNUSUAL number stamping set in that Ford Service bulletin...

Adam

To me it’s helpful to have the numeral very visible by tapering away the punch sides at those steep angles. That shape helps to see where to stamp the next number beside the last one. Like the belt holder used by this guy!

I used to have an engine wth an upside down 4.

"Considering the rarity of a block without a serial number,"

I have seen several engine blocks without serial numbers, but then again I have a milling machine.

It's too bad someone altered the casting date on the '16 block Steve posted... you can see the weird shape of the "6" turned into a "5"... At least they didn't mess with the serial number, but I'm not sure how one could change it back to a "6" easily... It also shows the unusual "serifs" on Fords 1 and 2 from that era... finding those stamps might be a challenge!

Susanne, I reckon it was an 8, the engine number pad is a give away too being the longer one.

My educated guess would be that isn’t a FORD stamped serial number

I agree. The 1 & 2 digits are different than on the other blocks.

Unlike the Model A era stamps, both early and late styles of A stamps, that were special, the Model T stamps were era standard stamps available at hardware stores. Back in 1972 I was able to by a set complete with wood box. I found the stamps at a old hardware store in Armona Ca. near Fresno. I doubt that they are from the 1920's, most likely they are from the late 1940's to early 1950's but they are the same as used on original Ford stamped blocks. They must have been quite common and there must be some still out there at estate sales and such.

I realized as well there were 3 separate sets of stamps used on that block... different sizes, different numbers, etc... 2 different sizes of "1"' (one matches the "3", the other doesn't), and the 2 and 8 are smaller...

I doubt those were done at Highland, and I wonder now if they were even done by Ford, or at a garage stamping a blank block with whatever punches they had...

I agree Susanne. With all the supervisors and foremen Ford had on the line, I don’t think they would have put up with such sloppy work from the serial number stampers as is apparent on several of the pictures above. So crooked are the stamped numbers that I doubt that those stamping were done at the factory, but instead were done in a garage on a replacement engine by someone who didn’t give a s—t. The reason I embarked on this discussion is because the numbers on my original ‘26 block are so straight and level that I was trying to figure a way to reproduce that result. I had no idea that the numbers on some blocks were not very well done and that the consensus is, if the numbers are straight, they were not correctly stamped as they were originally done in the factory. Whaaaaat?. It seems that too many T owners have formed the opinion that the Model T is a substandard car not worth the extra effort and that any extra effort is a waste of money and time and not original to the concept that Henry Ford had of his car. There is nothing further from the truth. Henry Ford loved the Model T. It was his baby and his obsession and he was constantly striving to make it better and woe to anyone who got in the way of that or did not share his vision. A lot of our members seem to be of the opinion that Ford workers did substandard work and that any restoration that does not incorporate and perpetuate these substandard practices is “over-restoration”. I’d like to think that Ford had more pride than to propagate the notion that the Ford Motor Company tolerated substandard work. While they probably did not foresee the Model T lasting for 100 years and attaining the status and popularity that it has, they would be shocked and sad to think that the poor work of a careless shade tree mechanic that most likely did not have the money, the skill, or the care to do it right, was being attributed to Ford workers and being perpetuated as original. The Model T may have been an inexpensive car, but it was not a cheap car and I hope that some of the substandard work done by past owners, that has been interpreted as original, will be corrected by doing superior work to bring your T more in line with the well made Ford product that the T was with great workmanship originally done on the assembly line by well trained Ford workers. Jim Patrick

The majority of original stamped numbers are crooked, and at best, obviously stamped separately. This is true, especially through the early years. They seem to be getting better by the end of 1927, but they are not perfectly in line like a machine stamping.

If you want to have perfectly aligned numbers, there are stamp holders similar to this one that would hold all the numbers perfectly in line.

DanTreace wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:26 am

Factory stamps varied, but some are fairly nice, on this photo the skilled stamper is using a metal guide, for a very important engine, all other stamping was free hand, typically with a skilled worker on that task.


IMG_9502.JPG

Here is the dedicated stamping worker in 1915, one view shows his box containing metal numeral stamps, and the other shows the same worker stamping the numbers on the block. Likely chosen for ability to hit the hammer blow correctly for a deep stamp that is placed best he can.



383860.jpg

block stamping employee 1915.jpg

Ford Service, showing wood box of stamps. Have done blocks with Harbor Freight 1/4" high numeral stamp set, works fine. You have to have a good hard swing, but the iron block takes the imprint OK. Just don't use numerals with serifs on the ends, as those are old time looking, but Ford didn't use that font style on T serial stamps.


Scan0395.JPG

Dan, what Service Bulletin issue has the article on block stamping? I have a complete set, and all I can find is an issue that lists the motor numbers used for given years.

Slight drift:

I have a spare block in my garage and the serial number is only nine off from the block in my unrestored '17 roadster, both corresponding to May 26, 1917.

Only the last digit of the serial number differs - 0 vs 9.

However, the block in my car has a May 25, 1917 casting date while the spare block has a May 24, 1917 casting date.

Dan, what Service Bulletin issue has the article on block stamping? I have a complete set, and all I can find is an issue that lists the motor numbers used for given years.


The picture and instructions are from April 1, 1919 Service Bulletin. Another ref. about not grinding off old numbers in re-stamping is in July 1925 Service Bulletin.

There was a device that held all those numbers in an even row and had a turn screw on the end to tighten them in place.

The handle was a coiled section of about 3/16th inch wire that looked like the tool used to lift the lids off old wood cook stoves to add more wood.

I saw a photo of it years ago, but I do not remember where.

Stampings made at the factory with that tool were always very even.

Stampings made on replacement engines were never even in position or depth.

An armature can easily break or crack a block if a single stamp is hit too hard.

There was an art to those replacement stampings.

DanTreace wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:26 am

Factory stamps varied, but some are fairly nice, on this photo the skilled stamper is using a metal guide, for a very important engine, all other stamping was free hand, typically with a skilled worker on that task.


IMG_9502.JPG

Here is the dedicated stamping worker in 1915, one view shows his box containing metal numeral stamps, and the other shows the same worker stamping the numbers on the block. Likely chosen for ability to hit the hammer blow correctly for a deep stamp that is placed best he can.



383860.jpg

block stamping employee 1915.jpg

Ford Service, showing wood box of stamps. Have done blocks with Harbor Freight 1/4" high numeral stamp set, works fine. You have to have a good hard swing, but the iron block takes the imprint OK. Just don't use numerals with serifs on the ends, as those are old time looking, but Ford didn't use that font style on T serial stamps.


Scan0395.JPG

Had to have been loud in there....none of them are wearing hearing protection.

Just get a set of stamps. They do not need to be exact Ford repro stamps. If building up a car be sure to check to make sure number is good.
The reason to check the number is my 26 is registered with #14625. Obviously three digits missing. Took 3 tries to pick a good number. And FWIW, neither Washington, Oregon or Arizona cared that the number made no sense.

The numeral 1 has both serifs on many engines, but in the service bulletin photo of the stamp set it has only the top one.

https://www.harborfreight.com/14-in-ste ... mber+stamp

`You have to remember that blocks have a date code cast into them.

FYI, here are several photos of an unstamped Model T block with a mold mark of 25 S and the Ford script and USA in the area partially covered by the lower water inlet. If you can look closely you may be able to see the boss machining marks that come down and arc to the left.

Dom

That script just confirmed to the buyer, it was a genuine Ford block, ready to be assembled by the dealer shop or another repair shop back then.

Ford must have figured that was needed to guarantee the buyer.

There were ''spurious" parts out there by golly.

Or perhaps these blocks were the ones sold to dealers, that came complete with most of the internals to assemble into a completer motor. At this time seems the factory could not ship out complete finished and serialized motors to dealers. So bare blocks with parts were sold.


Here is another with that Ford and USA, but with a serial number stamp. Since its an Improved Block, was stamped with Ford, as even the later cylinder heads didn't have Ford script on top!

I agree with Jim Patrick.
The engine numbers on my 1914 are near perfectly aligned.
If you read the book "Ford Methods and the Ford Shops", you will get a really good idea of how good Ford production methods were. There was NOTHING left to chance in the manufacture of a Model T Ford, at least after the moving assembly line was instituted. There may have been some sloppiness prior to that, but I don't think there was much, and after that point, I guarantee you there was no sloppiness whatsoever!
Every single step and operation in the production of a Model T was time-studied, analyzed, costed out, and checked and double-checked.
As they make clear in the book I mentioned, EVERY DAY, THE FORD COMPANY MOVED EVERY PART IN PERFECT SYNCHRONISATION TO INSURE THERE WAS NO SHORTAGE OR EXCESS OF ANY PART at every point of the assembly line.
I can't believe they ever left anything to chance. That would not be like the Ford engineers to have skipped that.
Every day, they moved the exact amount of material to build a certain number of cars, and every day, ALL those cars were shipped. There never was any storage of Ford cars at the factory.
It is true there were reserves of parts. I was amazed to discover that they kept as many as 40,000 pieces of a particular part in reserve. (This was part of how Henry paid off all the stockholders when he turned every single part he had in stock, into cars, and then shipped them all to raise the funds to beat the Wall-Streeters who were hoping to take over Ford when they thought he would run out of money.) Clever Henry knew what he was doing.

My recently acquired '26 frame is stamped, and I thought it interesting that both 8s are upside down. Apparently this happened frequently???

OilyBill wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:32 pm

I agree with Jim Patrick.
The engine numbers on my 1914 are near perfectly aligned.
If you read the book "Ford Methods and the Ford Shops", you will get a really good idea of how good Ford production methods were. There was NOTHING left to chance in the manufacture of a Model T Ford, at least after the moving assembly line was instituted. There may have been some sloppiness prior to that, but I don't think there was much, and after that point, I guarantee you there was no sloppiness whatsoever!
Every single step and operation in the production of a Model T was time-studied, analyzed, costed out, and checked and double-checked.
As they make clear in the book I mentioned, EVERY DAY, THE FORD COMPANY MOVED EVERY PART IN PERFECT SYNCHRONISATION TO INSURE THERE WAS NO SHORTAGE OR EXCESS OF ANY PART at every point of the assembly line.
I can't believe they ever left anything to chance. That would not be like the Ford engineers to have skipped that.
Every day, they moved the exact amount of material to build a certain number of cars, and every day, ALL those cars were shipped. There never was any storage of Ford cars at the factory.
It is true there were reserves of parts. I was amazed to discover that they kept as many as 40,000 pieces of a particular part in reserve. (This was part of how Henry paid off all the stockholders when he turned every single part he had in stock, into cars, and then shipped them all to raise the funds to beat the Wall-Streeters who were hoping to take over Ford when they thought he would run out of money.) Clever Henry knew what he was doing.

Some original numbers were stamped fairly straight, most are crooked or at best, not aligned. The assembly line was not a perfect beast, and there are plenty of examples of shoddy work or mistakes on original cars.

Adam wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:19 pm

That is an UNUSUAL number stamping set in that Ford Service bulletin...

So far, nobody has figured it out...

OK, What is the last stamp (letter/figure) in the red box? Is it the number 6 or 9 or is it a . (dot)....N.....

The far left stamp in the red box is an &. The ampersand is also known as the and sign.

The red box has 9 rows of 4 stamps = 36, 26 letters, 9 numbers and the ampersand = 36. I wonder if they are the same height as the original T numbers. My set are old style numbers, but there is no C stamp for the Canadian numbers. I found a Q stamp in a junk store and ground the pigtail off with my Dremel tool.

Allan from down under.

The assembly line was not a perfect beast, and there are plenty of examples of shoddy work or mistakes on original cars.

Quite true. It can be anything from paint drips to coil box terminal nuts with the holes off center.