Hydraulic Front Brakes

[RichJ]

I have decided to start a new thread.
In the course of the past several weeks I've been searching for information pertaining to the installation of Model T front brakes. Thanks to Frank B., Gene C., Tony B., and Less S. I've got plenty of information now to follow through with the installation.
I have received several inquiries expressing interest in the Metro brake upgrade procedure. If anyone is interested in any details you are welcome to email or call me.
I also found this on the old forum, which I found very interesting and informative:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1201053751
If anyone can research the Quad-BEC brake system and find more information please post.
Thanks in advance.

[SurfCityGene]

Rich, if you look on that link at that last pic that RDR posted you see a good picture of how the E brake lever works with the pull rod. Wood wheels then too!

[RichJ]

Gene
Yes I did take notice of the way that Ralph did it. I found this after our discussion last week, thanks to your help and that old post, I'm ready to put this thing together.
When convient please check on the extra parts, I now have 4 drums, I just located 2 from a really nice guy on metro forum.
As rare as this stuff is, it never hurts to have extra parts etc. It's sort of witness to Ralph's legacy , he still lives on.!
The procedure was way more popular before the trendy bolt on disc ideas came out.
I like the metro way still 8 inch drums, and if done right, good parking brake.
The average person never notices it!!

[CudaMan]

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1401574677

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1433190855

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1376104952

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1370920583

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1376843046

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1399701410

[dykker5502]

Consider a Ford Model A.

[Norman Kling]

If you put any brakes on the front wheels, be sure to beef up the suspension. The T is prone to losing castor by just bumping the front wheels too hard on a pothole or curb. Even the Model A had front brakes which just slowed down the wheels, but the back ones locked them up. Anyway it would be especially bad on a car with the radius rod bolted above the axle, but even on one with the rod bolted under the axle, it could cause a problem. If it happens, your car could suddenly veer to one side and pull the steering wheel right out of your hands. So be sure to add additional support.
Norm

[Allan]

An innovative tinkerer in our club once fitted disc brakes to the front of his improved T. They were so effective that under a heavy application before a hairpin bend, the front axle stopped and the car drove on over the top of it. Perhaps anything on the front end needs to contribute to braking rather than become the dominant force.

Allan from down under.

[RichJ]

I'm aware of hazards related to front brakes
Thanks for all input

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Is it worth it? I mean I’m assuming you have them in the rear and can lock the wheels with them. Think about going in reverse and tearing the radius rod ball joint out & folding the axle over.

[Chris Barker]

I would also have worries about front brakes on a Model T, even with additional radius rods.
The rear brakes are self-limiting in terms of the loads going through the wheels and suspension. The harder you brake, the more weight is transferred from rear to front, and the wheels lock at low 'g'. Probably no more than 0.3g. But for a 2000lb car, that's still 600lb feeding down to the transmission ball joint.
Front brakes have the opposite effect. The harder the braking, the more weight goes onto the front wheels and so the force at which the wheels lock is much greater. Modern cars reach about 1g, and most of the braking effort comes from the front. If you fitted very powerful brakes to the front of a Model T, you might well achieve up to 0.8g (limited by the tyres), but the high cg would mean lots of weight transfer. A 2000lb car at 0.8g with most of the braking on the front would have to take about 750lb rearwards and maybe 650lb vertical load on each front wheel and spindle. That's 1000lb total.
More worryingly, the 1500 lb of braking would go right into the radius rod ball joint on that tin sump.
A Model A expert told me once that Model A front brakes were deliberately weak and only contributed about 40% of the braking. That's despite the Model A having very substantial front suspension.
It's very tempting to try to do better than the 0.3g available (at best) from any type of rear wheel brakes, but I would worry about having front brakes which pushed that beyond about 0.5g

[Les Schubert]

The only thing that scares me about my front brakes is the guy behind me that can’t stop!
So I check my mirrors!!!

[Les Schubert]

Some front disc brakes

[TRDxB2]

The only thing that scares me about my front brakes is the guy behind me that can’t stop!
So I check my mirrors!!!

There is always something in front of you to help you stop, choose wisely.

[Les Schubert]

Frank
Well I like having the choice!!

[AndyClary]

Having put thousands of hard miles on dad’s speedster with front brakes, I don’t think the tires involved could generate enough force to damage a double wishbone. It has a real steering gear so I can’t speak to reactions through the wheel. A friend with front disc brakes did get into a little trouble on a gravel road because the fronts locked up and he went straight.

Andy

[Les Schubert]

Andy
Well having spent my life driving on lots of slippery roads, here is the deal!!
Lock up the front brakes and you skid straight!!
Lock up the back brakes and you will have the back end trying to become the front end!!!
In the early days of ABS they understood this and installed it only on the rear axle (1969 Ford)

[AndyClary]

That’s just what happened Les. Gravel can be slippery too

Andy

[Les Schubert]

Andy
And that is precisely my point, if the rear brakes had locked up, very rapidly the back end would have been trying to come around!! Which would be much harder to recover from!!

[SurfCityGene]

On any thread about Front brakes on a there's always lots of comments about how the front axle will fold under or how the thin sheet metal pan will get bent.. There are a few of us that have T's with brakes on all four wheels. Ralph Ricks RIP aka RDR probably drove more miles with his T with front and rear brakes made from Metro hydraulics. He did two Great Races when his car was in the Speedster configuration and later converted it to a Picup as a daily driver hauling loads from Home Depot. We've done some panic stops for testing without any issues. On my '12 with the McNearney / Big Four front and Bennett rears I have not seen any distortion of the early pan. Last time I had the pan off the alignment was perfect at the fourth main.

I feel anyone who drives his early T a lot should have a double wishbone installed for safety! Of course adding brakes its a no brainer.

Thanks for reposting the links to past threads. There's lots of good info there.
Drive with care