Unknown Wire Wheels

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Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:28 pm

Purchased these 2 wheels at an auction a couple weeks back and have been unable to id them. They look a little like Hayes but have 6 mounting lugs instead of 4 and the outer hub is threaded to accommodate a 3” hub cap. The lug plates and bolts on the one wheel don’t seem to fit so I’m not really sure if they are right to the wheel or not.
Any ideas?
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Dropacent » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:37 pm

Pretty sure Spranger, made in Detroit. Pretty uncommon but a nice wire wheel. The lug nuts are wrong, I may have a loose one here somewhere. I sent a beautiful set to Australia, and a friend in meechigan has a set.

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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by DanTreace » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:14 pm

Looks a match all right.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:28 pm

Wow, great id!
I just searched Spranger and found a couple more period ads but no photos of actual wheels.
I’m in the process of gathering up parts to build a speedster so I’ll be on the hunt for a couple of rears to match these. None of the lugs and bolts are correct so I’d be interested in what you might have Tim.
So, any Spranger rear wheels and hub caps out there?
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:04 pm

I don’t mean to be a “wet blanket”... but you were lucky to find a pair of Spranger wheels in the first place. Even the more common wire wheels (Buffalo, Dayton, Budd) can take years to scrounge up a full set of useable pieces.

Here is an old thread from a few years ago on the subject of accessory wheels;
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/696044.html


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Allan » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:16 pm

Finding rear wheels is always a problem, either wheels or the hubs they mount on. Fronts seem to find their way under trailers etc. so they survive in bigger numbers. I once had to make a wee stop for my wife on a T club rally, and while stopped I discovered a pair of Hayes wheels under a sulky over the back fence. Since then wee stops are encouraged!

Allan from down under.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:22 am

Thanks for the link Kevin, had no idea there were so many accessory wheels for T’s.
I did get another odd ball wire wheel in the mix at the same auction. This one luckily still had the hub cap still in place. It’s a “Universal Welding Co” wheel. To bad I only got the one though. I guess I can either hunt down 3 Universals or 2 Sprangers!
Wow Allan, great story, I think I need to start making more pitstops!
Anyone have 3 Universals...
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Dropacent » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:44 am

To me, the hunt of this stuff is more than half the fun. I needed a rim for my set of sprangers and found it by asking around. My caps were rough so machined up a set, and also made some missing lugs. Turned out to be a great set that I would have today still had I not found an equally nice set of buffalos.
Start asking around, the parts are out there. Layden Butler is the first guy I’d ask. I’ll send a note to the other guy with a set, in case he has some spares now.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:18 am

Thanks Tim and if you still have any of the lugs or bolts it would give me something to copy. Even the rough hubcaps would be a start, I could get castings made from them. You’re right, the hunt is half the fun and looks like I’ll be hunting for a couple wheels!

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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by DanTreace » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:19 am

Wallace

Here's an adv. on that Universal wire wheel.

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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Tim Moore » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:09 pm

I am the other guy with Sprangers. You might have a tough time finding rears for the reasons stated. Sprangers and Hayes have built in hubs so the front and rears are different. Buffalo, House, Dayton wheels had a seperate hub so the wheels are the same...sometimes. There can be spoke count differences as well as size. Putting together a set of wheels can be a nightmare. Sometimes Hayes fronts are converted to rears.

I have some photos of Spranger rears so you can see they are different from fronts and a photo of the cap. I started with a full set but added 3 more fronts to the pile so I have enough useable rims, will have enough to make 2 rears and 3 fronts, one as a spare just to hold the extra rim and tire. Will try to post photos but on my phone and might have to do it later from laptop.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Allan » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:23 pm

Tim, from the photos I thought the wheels with six stud holes may mount onto Ford hubs. The last advertisement gives that impression. I gather that is not the case from your response. If so, the hunt will be difficult. Even the more plentiful Hayes wheels pose a problem finding usable rear wheels.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Kevin Pharis » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:40 pm

You are correct Allan. The 6 lug wheel and corresponding advertisement is for “Universal” brand wheel. These are the inspiration for the McLaren wire wheel that are currently available, and of course... bolt directly to the stock wood wheel hubs


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:03 pm

I kind of made it a little confusing by adding the photo of the Universal wheel that I got with the Sprangers. I wonder if the person who had these before was hoping to find another Universal and using them for rears, they would look a totally different but just a thought. I did take a wood spoke hub and set it inside the Universal and it fits like a glove with the wood spoke studs lining up perfectly.

Dan, nice ad on the Universal wheel. I looked on line for quite a while and never did find an ad for them.

Tim, that’d be great if you could post a photo of the rear hub of the Sprangers and maybe even of the hubcap. There’s really not much information on these wire spoke wheels let alone pictures of them.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by DustySpokes » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:51 pm

I have one orphan Spranger in my wire wheel collection. I will have to dig it out to see if it is a front or rear. I remember it was complete with demountable and looked to be in good shape. Maybe email me and let us see if we can do a trade on something ? - Dusty


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:07 am

Email sent Dusty

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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by John Warren » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:21 am

Is the Spranger wheels made for Model T Ford only? Wallace, have you checked to see if the hub in the Spranger is correct for the Model T? Nice wheels, Hope things work out!
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:01 am

Thanks John,
I’m not sure if they were all designed or built specifically for the Model T but I did take one of these Spranger wheels and it mounted on a T front axle spindle perfect. I know it’s a long shot but hopefully I’ll be able to locate enough Spranger parts to complete a set.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:21 am

Here’s a photo of the back of the hub on one of the Spranger wheels. It has what appears to be a speedometer gear pressed on and bolted in place. It doesn’t look like a typical Stewart Warner speedometer gear unless it’s a gear for some other function?
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:26 am

Most likely a "Ford Special" speedometer gear.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Dropacent » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:15 pm

I looked last night but haven’t kicked up the lug. Tim Moore will post a picture of what they look like, and I have a vague recollection we also made new bolts, too. I’m confident you can assemble a nice set.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Allan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:51 pm

Wallace, for a little devilment, you could inform inquisitors that the sprocket is to hook up front wheel drive, but you can't find the right chain just yet!
Allan from down under.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Tim Moore » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:46 pm

Rear Sprangers
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Tim Moore » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:47 pm

Spranger Cap
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Tim Moore » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:50 pm

Rim hardware both inner and outer
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Tim Moore » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:51 pm

what I have to work with for a set
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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Dropacent » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:14 pm

I’m wondering if a handy guy could make fronts into rears?


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:36 pm

Or just make new rear centers...


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Tim Moore » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:13 pm

The rims have a piece of square stock with a hole for the rim bolt in six locations and that is why the wheels are notched out. Unfortunately if they get loose the rim rocks and wears out the hole or breaks off the square stock from the rim. On my rears the "fix" was to weld the rim to the wheel. Thankfully they only did that in the attachment area and not around the rim. I have cut that all off and gotten the rims off.

I started with a set of 4 that an old friend gave me. They were given to him by a mail delivery person who had them om the mail truck. They had solid tires that were like ring baloney and I had a terrible time removing the tires, a sawz all was the solution.

These 4 did not have enough to work so got 1 out of Canada and 2 from Australia (all 3 fronts). Tim Morsher made the new rim bolts and 1 cap. Rears are going to be the problem and I have been down that road with Hayes that are also hub in wheel.

I have 2 sets of Buffalo snap ring wheels done with hubs and caps in storage. Those were difficult also but at least there is no front and rear wheel, just hubs.

I might get on these this summer as I retire in a couple of months and drop down to just my private business. Should go fairly easy without not too much $$$ to spend now.

Funny, Hayes were made in Jackson about 30 miles from me and Sprangers in Detroit about 70 miles from me. They sure didn't want to stay around home.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:20 pm

Tim Moore wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:13 pm
The rims have a piece of square stock with a hole for the rim bolt in six locations and that is why the wheels are notched out. Unfortunately if they get loose the rim rocks and wears out the hole or breaks off the square stock from the rim. On my rears the "fix" was to weld the rim to the wheel. Thankfully they only did that in the attachment area and not around the rim. I have cut that all off and gotten the rims off.

I started with a set of 4 that an old friend gave me. They were given to him by a mail delivery person who had them om the mail truck. They had solid tires that were like ring baloney and I had a terrible time removing the tires, a sawz all was the solution.

These 4 did not have enough to work so got 1 out of Canada and 2 from Australia (all 3 fronts). Tim Morsher made the new rim bolts and 1 cap. Rears are going to be the problem and I have been down that road with Hayes that are also hub in wheel.

I have 2 sets of Buffalo snap ring wheels done with hubs and caps in storage. Those were difficult also but at least there is no front and rear wheel, just hubs.

I might get on these this summer as I retire in a couple of months and drop down to just my private business. Should go fairly easy without not too much $$$ to spend now.

Funny, Hayes were made in Jackson about 30 miles from me and Sprangers in Detroit about 70 miles from me. They sure didn't want to stay around home.
Tim,

Maybe speak with Precision Metal spinning in Fenton, MI about your rear "hub-in-wheel" situation.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by desertexplorer » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:31 pm

Tim, your hubs look to be 2 piece, is that only on your rears?
My hubs are one piece but maybe that’s because they are fronts. Looking at your photo it doesn’t look too likely to be able to modify a front into a rear. I suppose anything’s possible but looking at your hub it appears offset for the brake shoes. It may be easier to machine new rears as was suggested by Kevin. My fronts hubs are a machined casting, probably ductile or cast steel. I’m sure the rears are the same.
Last edited by desertexplorer on Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:36 pm

Spinning the drums might be a solution... but if you are only making a handful, may not be worth the cost of tooling. The drums and rear wheel hubs would be easy enough to carve from solid with the right equipment


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Tim Moore » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:47 pm

Correct, the original rears are 2 pieces riveted together with the brake drums. Converting fronts to rears is possible but will not be authentic and will not be right. Rear Spranger wheels are going to be very hard to find and probably nearly impossible.

I once did a set of 19" Dayton dental drive drop center wheels for a customer, that is my ultimate goal to find. Matching up wire wheels is expensive and takes years.

Good luck and be prepared for frustration and lots of $$ spent. If you do find something multiple the purchase by 3 for what you finish with.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:58 pm

Kevin Pharis wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:36 pm
Spinning the drums might be a solution... but if you are only making a handful, may not be worth the cost of tooling. The drums and rear wheel hubs would be easy enough to carve from solid with the right equipment

I had Precision Metal Spinning make 2 new brake drums for my 1912 Overland. They were spun & even had a nice finish cut taken on the I.D. & O.D. to ensure roundness. If I recall now, it came to about $350 for the pair. Not too bad for 2 brand new drums.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Dropacent » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:12 pm

A lot of those old companies have tooling that will work hanging on the wall. If it was me doing it, which it isn’t, I’d have large drums spun and then make rear wheels with the bigger size.


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Re: Unknown Wire Wheels

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:13 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:58 pm
I had Precision Metal Spinning make 2 new brake drums for my 1912 Overland. They were spun & even had a nice finish cut taken on the I.D. & O.D. to ensure roundness. If I recall now, it came to about $350 for the pair. Not too bad for 2 brand new drums.
WOW!!!😳

That’s amazing that it was that affordable. Usually the tooling charges get waaaay out of hand... at least they do whenever I’m the customer...🙄

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