Greasy brakes- now what?

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danungar
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Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by danungar » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:15 pm

Welp, my suspicion proved to be correct. My outer bearing seal has failed, and my emergency brake is now covered in grease. As imagined, this is notably impacting braking performance. (i.e. it doesn't do sh*t). I understand I'll need to at a minimum replace the grease seal, and probably the shoes and maybe even the cams, but I have some questions that I'd love input on. Namely:

-What solvent should I used to clean up the drum / hub assembly?

-What else should I be looking for now that I have everything apart?

-What torque should I tighten the rear axle nut down to once I reassemble it all?

Also, I'm fairly sure this is my own fault. When I inherited the car it came with grease fittings where there would normally be grease cups. Not knowing how much grease to add, I kept just pumping away with the grease gun, expecting grease would begin backing up at the fitting once it was full. Well, now I know where all that grease was going...I think. Should I be concerned about the integrity of the inner seals as well? Also, how much grease should I actually be adding to the rear for its regularly scheduled lube job?

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:23 pm

Besides seals and cleaning, soak the shoes in lacquer thinner to clean lining. They are parking brakes not stopping brakes anyway. Worst case, install new lining.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by TWrenn » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:46 pm

Yay! Another fan of lacquer thinner! Lacquer thinner is my "shop buddy" :lol:

Get the neoprene inner seal, and the bit more expensive "fancy" outer seal also.

Before you insert the neoprene seal, put a bead of the oil resistant black RTV (there is a difference) around it, shove it in, don't do anything for a day to let it set. Be SURE to clean around the inner lip of the axle housing also with that good ol' lacquer thinner too, to make sure it's a good clean mating. Makes a huge difference in keeping things dry.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Kerry » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:11 pm

You have another issue other than over greasing, your axle already has a shim on it and the hub is still rubbing on the seal casing so fitting a modern seal is going to be a problem. Usually it's the hub that has the most wear so find a better hub or remove the hub from the wheel and have the lip turned off. Another option is clean it all and fit the original felt seal that is missing (same as front wheel bearing seal) in the hub/brake drum, new shim and don't over grease the bearing in the future.
Last edited by Kerry on Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:14 pm

I'm a fan a Brakleen & I use the modern inner seals that are available at all the vendors - I use the original outer washer, felt seal & tin cap.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:28 pm

The original T didn't have inner seals, however, they are available from the vendors. and will keep the differential oil from getting into the bearing and brakes. To install you turn it so the seal fits tight to the axle on the inside of the housing toward the differential. Tap in until it hits the outside of the housing Then put the sleeve in and if it sticks out the end of the axle housing, pull it out and grind off some from the inside edge toward the seal. Then install the sleeve and the bearing. While you have it apart, you might need to install a new sleeve and/or the roller bearing if worn.
last install new felt in the outer seal. If you have a good seal to keep the differential oil from getting into the bearing, pack the roller bearing with bearing grease and install. When you add grease, just a pump or two is enough When you install the hub, try it without the key or shim and see if anything scrapes. If it doesn't scrape, you don't need a shim, just install the key and torque to 100 ft lbs. If it scrapes, use a shim. The original brake shoes were steel to steel, so they don't need to be replaced. Just clean off, however, if they are lined shoes, you might need to replace the lining. They were not intended to use to stop the car except in an emergency. They were for parking But since you can't park in gear, it is a good thing to use a chock block if you are on a hill.
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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:37 pm

Norm - Ford indeed installed inner seals on the "Improved" Ford - it consisted of a leather seal held in place with a spring loaded finger contraption.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Adam » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:39 pm

This was mentioned here and I’ve heard too many people say it : “They are parking brakes not stopping brakes”

I STRONGLY DISAGREE!!!

The rear brakes are EMERGENCY BRAKES and highly important. If any of the multiple parts in the drive line between the rivet on the brake pedal shaft and the rear wheel breaks, the only brake you have to stop the car is the REAR EMERGENCY BRAKES. Model T emergency brakes ideally should work well enough that you can skid the rear wheels.

Any of the following conditions may suddenly cause you to have NO FOOT BRAKE: Broken rivet on pedal shaft, broken band, sheared drive plate rivets or broken drive plate, broken u-joint, broken pinion gear, sheared pinion gear key, failed differential thrust washer, sheared axle shaft gear key, sheared hub key, and broken axle shaft.

Please be very serious about the condition and maintenance of your rear brakes.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:27 pm

I strongly agree with Adam. Even with iron shoes the small drum emergency brakes should be able to lock up the rear wheels. Rear axle failure is not uncommon even on restored cars and pretty much guaranteed on cars where the rear axle hasn't been rebuilt. Rear axle failure will result in immediate and complete loss of the foot brake. When that happens you better hope the hand brake works like it should. It is very important that both the foot and hand brakes on a T work properly. Unfortunately the hand brakes on most Ts that I've seen won't even hold the car stationary much less stop it in an emergency situation.

When you install new inner seals, make sure that you use the permatex gasket maker that is made specifically for gear oil. If you use anything else the oil will break it down and your axle will soon be gushing oil again. The felt outer seals are fine. You don't need to spend the $$ on the aluminum ones.

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by danungar » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:57 pm

Thanks all for the replies. A lot of very helpful information.
I think I'm going to:
Degrease and clean up everything with Brakleen as others have suggested (obviously be careful not to blast it into the inside of the axle shaft)
Replace both races
Replace the inner and outer seals on both sides with new neoprene seals
Clean and repack the outer bearings with new grease.
Order a few shims of both sides to ensure I have a good solid mating between the axle and the hub. (I really don't think this is too much of an issue. I had to really fight to get the wheel off. The key appears to be in good shape too, suggesting not a lot of play)

One thing I've noticed is there appeared to be an almost calk-like substance in and around the existing outer seal. I'm wondering if my grandfather went an extra mile trying to ensure it was well sealed.

I've posted some additional photos, including some photos of the removed bearing. I was planning to just pack it and reuse it, but if you guys can think of any reasons why I might not want to do that, I'd love to hear.

It's all in the following album:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KSkrbAnNJBdYpqNm6


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Allan » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:14 pm

Daniel, regarding shims, by all means have some available. However, they should be of different thicknesses, and you should only fit ONE. Mutiple shims will allow movement betwen them, causing wear to the axle keyway, the key and the hub. The fewer interfaces between components, the better the taper fit is. Ideally NO shims is best. After that, one, of adequate thickness, is acceptable. Before you reassemble the wheel to the axle polish the axle taper with emery tape to make sure all is clean.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:30 pm

I see:

an axle sleeve sticking out like there is an inner neoprene seal already
grease on the shoes
a shim necessary to shim drum out past the extended sleeve

I do not see:

oil from the differential
an external felt on the drum (outside of the metal cup)...these are missing in 99% of cases and that means you are missing 50% of your grease retention ability

I would:

modify the race to sit more like originally intended in the axle
Install ALL of the external seals as was designed by FORD
Install a single shim of sufficient thickness to allow things to fit as necessary (you may no longer need the shim with the sleeve sitting where it belongs)
drive and enjoy the car

addendum: having seen that you have an accessory external seal, you can deduce two things: the seal will eventually fail 100% of the time as the axle will flex and the seal will not (not all improvements are good, much less well thought out). And finally, that seal (combined with the extended race) absolutely requires the added bandaid of shim(s). The original FORD external seal, properly configured, works remarkably well to hold back grease (which is all that should be there, and is all that looks like is there).
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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by danungar » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:08 pm

Random thought: If I attempt to remove and replace the inner neoprene seal (not even sure how I might accomplish this), how much oil is waiting for me on the other side, and do I have to worry about it draining out?

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:02 pm

None really. The lube in the rear end should be below the axle housing. Depending on which rear end, the plug on the center line of the housing; level should be about 1" below it, the plug that is below the center line level should be even with the bottom of the hole. Any lube in the housings should be minimal. The sleeves sticking out to far crossed my mind too when I saw the pictures, but none of the modern inner seals I have installed, the sleeve does not stick out that far. Maybe some other type or someones idea.

My experience using the parking brakes to stop the car on flat ground was dismal at best. At 20 MPH with clean lined adjusted small drum shoes, it slowed down but never really stopped, maybe given enough distance it would have. Could not get enough leverage on the handle to be effective let alone lock up the wheels. Better then nothing I guess, but would not want to trust them in an emergency. There is not a whole lot of lining on those shoes to start with esp compared with 26/27 or even small drum outside brakes. But they do need to be clean and adjusted, even to work as parking brakes, esp on a slope.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by jiminbartow » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:10 pm

Isn’t there an accessory in the form of a pair of steel spirals that slip over each shaft with a reverse spiral that, when the shaft turns, the spiral moves any gear oil that escaped the pumpkin back toward the pumpkin along the same principles of Archimedes Screw? Jim Patrick

DBFD14D4-99FA-4738-8184-223E9CC72FD8.jpeg
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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by DHort » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:25 pm

puller.jpg
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You should be able to pull that inner seal with a cotter pin puller or just a coat hanger that you have bent.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Farmer J » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:05 am

I use a propane torch to degrease brake linings. Heating the face of the linings will cause the grease or oil to bubble out. Then use a rag to wipe the bubbles off. Repeat this until no bubbles appear.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Adam » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:32 am

Mark Gregush wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:02 pm
My experience using the parking brakes to stop the car on flat ground was dismal at best. At 20 MPH with clean lined adjusted small drum shoes, it slowed down but never really stopped, maybe given enough distance it would have. Could not get enough leverage on the handle to be effective let alone lock up the wheels. Better then nothing I guess, but would not want to trust them in an emergency. There is not a whole lot of lining on those shoes to start with esp compared with 26/27 or even small drum outside brakes. But they do need to be clean and adjusted, even to work as parking brakes, esp on a slope.
Mark, That experience is a bit dismal, but I’d just like to make it “generally known” that the rear brakes should work much better than that. Something there isn’t functioning exactly as it should. It might be difficult to track down but the results may save a life one day. On my first Model T when I was in my late teens to early twenties, I thought it was fun to skid the rear tires and actually used up a set of small drum lined shoes and had to re-line them. I’ve adjusted brakes on dozens of T’s since I started working on them professionally around 2003. The majority of cars will skid the rear wheels when you jerk the handle back. On some cars that are a combination of a very heavy car and/or have too many worn components, you may not be able to get the rear wheels to skid, but they still should stop very well. If everything else is in excellent condition, I might suspect that maybe your cams and bushings are worn? A relatively small amount of play there can consume quite a bit of motion and they can be very difficult to change, so are often overlooked. The second factor is in the adjustment. Each side should be adjusted individually by itself and the brake should begin to have a slight drag with the lever in the straight-up-and-down position and the lever should not be able to be pulled back against it’s position of full travel with one arm. If it can be, then there may be something amiss. Both sides are then hooked up after adjusting each side individually. One time I worked on a T with poor emergency brakes and the major cause was roll pins in the rear cam levers instead of rivets. Re-riveting the cams fixed it.


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Burger in Spokane » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:50 am

No one is looking at the positive side here. Greased brakes provide
far less squeaking, and wear far longer !

You guys need to quit being so negative ! :roll:
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:01 am

One thing I will add to what Adam said is that after you have adjusted each side individually, and have everything together, is to test the brakes. Do this by finding a comparatively level paved area and when going about 5 mph pull hard on the lever. If it pulls to one side or slides the wheel on one side, loosen the clevis on that side,one half turn and reinsert the pin and cotter pin. Then test again. If it still slides on the same side, tighten the opposite side one half turn. Do this until it stops straight and both wheels slide at the same position of the handle. Last thing to check is for a free neutral when the lever is slightly front of straight up and also you should be able to shift from low to high with the foot pedal without sticking in neutral. If the rods are adjusted too long, you will have trouble with the handle going forward and interfering with the cam on the cross shaft and the clutch bolt at the side of the transmission.
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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Craig Leach » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:15 am

This is a loaded topic. To the best of my knowledge the manufactures of brake lining recomend if they are contaminated with oil or grease they be replaced. That being said I know that doesnt always happen.

I have had poor results with the neoprene outer seals ( seal failures, O/ring failures, poor seal around the little plug ) Then I may be over greasing as I have had grease on brakes with no appanent seal failure. Has anyone thought of installing a grease relief for the bearing?

The other day I worked on a 1920 Touring car that had 5/16" holes drilled in the bottum of the axle tube inboard of the outer bearing to let out any gear oil that made it that far, has anyone seen that before??

Allen you mentioned different shim thicknesses who sells them? All the suppliers I have found do not list different ones?

Scott I'm thinking of going back to the felt axle seals in the future. You mentioned a felt between the housing cap & wheel hub ? Did I miss something here I have never seen that before, is it the same felt as the T-2510-B?

The springs on the axle to pull the oil to the center are Woodworth Grease Retainers

Thanks, Craig


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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:29 am

Craig

you are in good company. Not 1 in 100 have probably ever seen the rear wheel properly sealed. The rear hub takes the same seal as the front wheel (felt). There is a reason the hub is machined the way it is...

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1541545002

Call it a seal, call it a sponge, call it a dust excluder, call it anything you want, it's usually missing, and shouldn't be...
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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:33 am

The other day I worked on a 1920 Touring car that had 5/16" holes drilled in the bottom of the axle tube inboard of the outer bearing to let out any gear oil that made it that far, has anyone seen that before?? Yes, I have.

Allen you mentioned different shim thicknesses who sells them? All the suppliers I have found do not list different ones? Lang's has them in two thickness, but if those are too thick or thin would need to make your own. https://www.modeltford.com/item/2505SH.aspx

Scott I'm thinking of going back to the felt axle seals in the future. You mentioned a felt between the housing cap & wheel hub ? Did I miss something here I have never seen that before, is it the same felt as the T-2510-B? It would be the same as the front hub felt seal 2809. https://www.modeltford.com/item/2809.aspx
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Craig Leach » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:56 am

Thanks Guy's I can't wait to prove to the wife I can still learn new tricks.
Craig

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by danungar » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:41 pm

OKAY. Both assemblies are apart and cleaned up.

2 Questions:

1) My roller bearings look good, but are only measuring 0.49" each (pretty much universally). I know the manual says the spec is 0.500", but doesn't really say what they start out at. Normally I'm one to err on the side of caution and just swap em out, but it doesn't seem like any of the parts retailers are selling grooved roller bearings anymore, just slightly inferior ungrooved ones. It doesn't feel like there is any directional play, but I don't have the tools to know better.

2) Brake Cams. I'm replacing the shoes with new 1 piece lined shoes from Lang's, and noticed the kit comes with new cams and bushings (but not levers). Given that this project is already late and over budget, I don't love the idea of drilling out the existing cam rivets and replacing them with new ones. (I honestly have no idea how I would rivet a new one in place). Here are some photos of what I'm working with. What do you think?
IMG_3759.jpg
IMG_3759.jpg
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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Allan » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:04 pm

Daniel, I think you can buy just the pair of shoes without the cams if your budget is really tight. But, one of your cams is already fitted with a shim, so it is best to replace them at that stage.
First step is to drill the old rivets. Don't drill all the way through. Stop about 3/4 of the way so that you leave a hole to take a pin punch, the bottom of the hole being the point for the punch to push on. The old bushes are easier to extract if you carefully cut them all the way though with a hacksaw so they will collapse. New ones can be fitted by using a length of all thread as a puller, rather than hammering them in. Re-riveting is easier as a two man job. Order new rivets, perhaps an extra one or two as insurance against beginners inexperience. The second pair of hands is needed to hold a heavy buck against one end of the rivet while you pound on the other.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by danungar » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:26 pm

New seals and bearing sleeves are in, and it appears I'm going to have to modify the sleeves to accommodate the width of the inner seals so they don't stick out. Any tips on the best way to go about doing this? Is this something I should see about taking to a machine shop for, or can it be accomplished with an angle grinder?

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Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by jsaylor » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:56 pm

I use the inner seals from Chaffins. They have a relief at the edge to accommodate the sleeve. I have not had to grind anything off the sleeve. Sometime the rivets keep the seal from going all the way in and you have to grind or file a little off the rivet head. Seal Manufactured by others may not have the relief.


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Last Name: Mirtes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: Huron, Ohio
MTFCA Number: 32489
MTFCI Number: 24068
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Art M » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:12 pm

I would use the 049 in. Hyatt roller bearings. You will probably have .010 in clearance when using new sleeves. I will probably get beat up for saying this, but I have some experience with these.

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danungar
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:47 am
First Name: Daniel
Last Name: Ungar
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Center Door Sedan
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by danungar » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:09 pm

So it turns out the inner seals were not neoprene seals, but either a felt material or possibly one of the later model leather seals. Either way, the new neoprene seals are in, as are the bearing sleeves. The sleeves still stick out ever so slightly, but I'm hesitant to do anything about it since both the grease hole and the alignment bump are lining up directly on the money. I repacked the existing bearings and put on the new outer grease seals, but I was a little put off by how loosely they fit on the exterior of the axle housing. They slipped right on, and required no tools or force to get on. They also will slide right off, which is what concerns me. I know the wheel hub will prevent them from actually coming off, but I am concerned that the high tolerance between the outer flange of the seal and the axle housing will allow grease to escape, recreating the problem I'm trying to solve. I know when my grandfather restored this car (1922 Center Door), he had to acquire a new rear end because the existing one was shot. Now I'm wondering if the rear end he ended up with was one off of an early model year car with a smaller axle housing diameter. HMMMMM.
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DHort
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First Name: Dave
Last Name: Hjortnaes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Speedster, 20 touring
Location: Men Falls, WI
MTFCA Number: 28762
MTFCI Number: 22402

Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by DHort » Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:30 pm

I would give them a try. They do not have to be a tight fit, just enough for the o-rings to keep the grease in. Remember not to put extra grease in the rear bearings with the grease cup, and if you want to check to see how well they are working to take off the LEFT wheel first. The LEFT wheel is the one that usually leaks. All you waste is a cotter pin. You should plan on repacking the front and rear bearings every year.


Allan
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Greasy brakes- now what?

Post by Allan » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:29 pm

Daniel, 3 tips at no cost, so value them as you see fit.
That much sleeve protrusion is not usual. An angle grinder ill get rid of it. Stuff the axle tube, sans bearing, with rags to prevent grindings getting in, and put some kind of sleeve over the axle as insurance against slip-ups, and have at it.
I make my on shims from steel cans, food grade, paint grade, any container that will give you the clearance you need. Just use ONE which ill get the hub far enough out that you can still comfortably fit the split pin. Re-tension the axle nut a couple of time until the bits get to know each other.
The inside bore of the axle tubes varies somewhat,so it would not surprise me if the same applied to the outside. Fit the new seals with a liberal coat of RTV sealant, which will help seal and retain the cups too.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under

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