MTFCA Forum

Me thinks it’s not a bad idea. Keeps people from reusing the original screws, which is a really bad practice, IMHO

I've wondered the same thing, Steve. I suspect it was a matter of convenience/ignorance, whomever made the first replacement ring gear copy never bothered to look at the original Ford prints. They likely found a blank gear that was close enough and ditto with the threads. They may not have even known there was such a thing as 14-24 thread, or didn't bother to seek out the proper tooling to do it correctly. And I'm sure at that time 1/4-24 brass bolts were a dime a hundred so why go thru the grief of finding/supplying correct but obsolete bolts to go with a correct ring gear? Just my hunch.

Read Tinkerin Tips and you will get an idea of some shortcut ideas that likely morphed into some of the shortcuts we find in replacement hardware. It's annoying, but I'm thankful we have the parts we do, so long as they function and are safe. But I agree with you on this one, It could have easily been done right from the beginning. jb

Dropacent wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:36 pm

Me thinks it’s not a bad idea. Keeps people from reusing the original screws, which is a really bad practice, IMHO

There's some merit in this point of view.

When this was first addressed a few years ago the answers seemed to be the vendor had made up a good supply of the supposedly correct screw and when the stock was sold out the vendor would correct the thread issue and make them with the correct thread. Or so the story went anyway. It would seem by now they could have corrected it.

I am pretty sure the simi-threaded brass 1/4-24 slotted screw is an off the shelf thing and had been recommended for many years as a replacement for the 14-24 screws. So it would follow that someone making the ring gears would used the 1/4-24. Nice if you loose one and have a good hardware store close you might get a replacement without waiting for shipping. The 14-24 is just a little smaller so easy to run a tap thru the ring gear esp if some of the holes are buggered up or the 14-24 could not be gotten local anymore.

I don't quite understand what you mean by two sizes. However, if the new ring gears have a different size thread than the original ones, there should be sizes of screws to fit each ring gear so that when someone replaces the screws, he can get the size to fit his gear.
Norm

When this started happening some vendors like Lang’s started supplying both ring gear screws as original and the non-original. I think they still do. I have 3 really nice used original ring gears so when I use one of the originals I have to remember to get a set of the original screws.

After years of restoration of T's and other vehicles, the comments above clarify that prevention of re-using 100 year old attachment hardware. On a second note: I quit installing magnets on flywheels due old hardware failures, faulty reproduction hardware, magnets, etc. After a couple of years they came apart. Just me, but eating parts and labor is not in my best interest.

Hank

I have heard of two reasons.

14-24 is too close to 1/4 -24 to need both sizes.

The Chinese thought the 14-24 got the / left out and we really meant 1/4-24.

My starter screws were tapped to 1/4" unknowingly from #14 after my new 1/4" screws fit too tight. After installation, I learned of the existence of #14. It' been a few years since I worked my original ring gear and cannot remember if I intentionally resized it up to 1/4" or not. With that said, even if you have had your original ring gear untouched for 80 years, I would not assume that it is #14.

we supply the correct screws and have for years, when the mfg. of the ring gear started making them they were made with another thread so they started making screws for this application leaving us with over 30k screws, Bob

I heard the same explanation as Jim Golden's #2. Snyder's ordered a lot of ring gears from China, and the Chinese manufacturer thought the 14-24 was a typo, since 1/4-24 was (and still is) a common size. So when Snyder's were left with a boatload of 1/4-24 ring gears, they ordered screws to match.

I seem to recall that at the time the problem rolled around, it was said to be a Chinese misread/misinterpretation of a drawing. I never bought that completely unless the “Chinese” referred to were actually Taiwanese as the Taiwanese have worked in Imperial measure for generations. Folks insisted “it was mainland China and haphazard ways”.

For what it is worth, a little side story....mainland Chinese would never assume an American/Imperial interprets. They triple check, quadruple check, and still want someone to “initial here” if not actually request sample tooling be supplied with contract. This of course means nothing, I just chuckle because there’s really a better chance that someone on this side of the water didn’t know what a 14-24 thread was in the first place.

Mark, George: I agree, I too believe the 'problem' originated here in the USA. One 'clue' to this is that 14-24 is often referred to as 'obsolete' in older design hand books and fastener catalogues and this occurred before manufacturing moved offshore. In modern publications 14-24 is rarely mentioned, bolt charts from the 1930's jump from #12 to 1/4" in the range of standard bolt configurations. I believe the first makers of the ring gear replacements opted for the non-obsolete 1/4-24 that replaced the obsolete 14-24. The off the shelf 1/4-24 brass machine screws of that period were made well from quality material and were suitable replacements. When the USA got on the cheap at any cost downslide the hardware store machine screw quality went in the toilet and in my opinion is still down there. Thankfully a few shops take the trouble to make quality replacement fasteners for our cars. Even tho the ring gear screw sizes annoy us, quality fasteners are available if you make time to look for them. Now the cadmium crossbreed Philips/slotted head metric machine screws used to assemble things like the Chinese made replacement starter switches are another matter.

Drive careful, jb

We are very lucky to have 50$ Starter gears available, even with the small inconvenience of the fastener issue. There are several solutions, just front the money to have dozens or hundreds made at a time yourself and then maybe make $10 profit off each, have the exact thing made at a cost of maybe $1000+- , or just be glad it is what it is. Again, frugal people among us would love to save $20 on new fasteners, and then wonder why they have a failure when they recycled the original screws.

I certainly am not advocating reusing starter ring gear screws, just make sure you identify and use the correct new ones. Vendors offer both sizes.

George Mills -- Your suggestion that the error occurred on this side of the water sounds plausible. That may be the reason the buyers didn't return the incorrect new parts and instead ordered incorrect screws to work with them.