21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
ivaldes1
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am
First Name: Ignacio
Last Name: Valdes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
Location: Houston, Tx
MTFCA Number: 50406
Board Member Since: 2016

21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by ivaldes1 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:52 am

The good news is: one wheel is done I think. Does the split have to be perfectly together? See photo.
IMG_0161.jpg
The bad news is: the second rim is kinked at the split so that the wheel just doesn't fit. How can I get it back to round?
IMG_0165.jpg
The ugly is: my rim spreader broke some how. It worked at first just fine now it is very stiff to move the handle and it doesn't go anywhere. I think something is stripped but I don't see anything obvious on the threaded shaft.

Otherwise: the arrow shaped wheel lock is much easier to get unstuck from galvanizing than the other style shown in the picture. In fact I have not so far been able to get the other style unstuck from galvanizing with Dremeling, heating wiggling, oiling, repeat and popping the handle a bit with a flat round punch (which works on the arrow shaped wheel lock).
IMG_0168.jpg
Finally, the new tube stem is bent after putting on the rim and taking it off. Is that a problem?
IMG_0167.jpg


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3641
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:04 am

The Ford 21 inch split rims are made of surprisingly soft steel. They are easy to distort using rim spreaders, blocks, and pry bars. They are also surprisingly easy to straighten. I rigged a compass, and drew a couple circles on a piece of cardboard (one centered inside the other) to match inner and outer diameters of the rim so that I could lay the rim on it and see exactly where it was kinked. Then, using a piece of scrap wood between the tire bead channels (to prevent crushing the channels, guess how I figured that one out!) and the rails of my trailer's tongue, carefully applied pressure to tweak the kinks back into proper curvature. Almost any heavy iron framing with a gap of four to eight inches should work.
A car I had years ago had four really tweaked rims. The ends wouldn't line up, the latches (the ones that were there!) wouldn't lock properly. They would actually mount up, air up, and could be forced onto the wheel fellies with a bit of effort. So your question about "can they be run that way", is yes they can! But it really isn't a good idea. It took me barely over an hour to straighten all four rims once I had drawn the circles to guide me.

I wouldn't worry about a minor tweak in the valve stem like you show.

User avatar

Topic author
ivaldes1
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am
First Name: Ignacio
Last Name: Valdes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
Location: Houston, Tx
MTFCA Number: 50406
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by ivaldes1 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:09 am

Thanks Wayne I will try the circle drawn with a compass check. Is the first one in the picture ok? The rim lined up very well by itself. Then when it went on it developed a substantial gap. But then when I aired it up the gap closed considerably to what you see in the picture.


kmatt2
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:41 pm
First Name: Kevin
Last Name: Matthiesen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 26 T Coupe, 16 T Open Express, 21 TT Flatbed. 15 T Roadster, 13 & 25 T Speedster , 51 Mercury 4 door sport sedan, 67 Mercury Cougar
Location: Madera CA 93636
MTFCA Number: 11598

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by kmatt2 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:39 am

Ignacio, You should be ok with picture #1 if you are using flaps. With split rims flaps should be used although Ford didn't use them from the factory. The bent valve stem tube in the later picture may give you some problems later on. The rubber stem tubes don't seem to be as good as a few years ago.


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3641
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:50 am

Ignacio, Hard to tell from the picture, but it appears that first rim is tweaked a bit. They can work fine if not too bad, however, sometimes the out-of-round turns into a bounce at speed. If the rims aren't too bad, the tire usually somewhat compensates for the rim's minor out-of-rounds. The comment about using flaps is a good one. Split rims should always have flaps. The tubes are vulnerable to two unseen hazards. Sunlight, which is pretty much eliminated while inside a mounted tire, and ozone. Ozone is an insidious gaseous oxygen molecule that creeps into even small crevasses and inner tubes don't like it. I have seen quite a few innertubes come out of tires on split rims where the spot over the split had failed in a nice straight two inch line. Flaps do a pretty good job of preventing that.

User avatar

Humblej
Posts: 1690
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:23 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Humble
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Canadian built coupe, 1924 TT C-cab, survivor 1924 roadster
Location: Charlevoix, Mi
MTFCA Number: 28034
Board Member Since: 2006

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by Humblej » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:37 am

Ignacio, I recommend tweeking the rim to get it to line up. Looks to me from the pictures that it is the rim lock that is bent, the rim may or may not be out of round. When I change tires I find there is always a rim or two that needs attention: broken rim lock, loose lugs, loose rim lock. Most of those problems can be repaird by braising on the tube side of the rim.

Be careful with a rim spreader, you only need to pop the rim out of the locked position and shrink the circumference about 2" to then use tire irons to pry the tire off.

I put some air in the tube first and stuff the tube and flap into the tire and then put that on the rim using 2 tire irons. Do not overlap the rim ends past the stem hole or you may damage the rim and stem.


John kuehn
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by John kuehn » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:23 am

Ignacio, the rim that has the galvanized wheel lock stuck shut might have to be really heated up to get it to start moving. Did it move before the rim was galvanized?
When it was galvanized the solution must have gotten between the parts and really stuck both sides together.
You might have to sacrifice the galvanizing coating at that point to get the lock to move. If it moves by heating it up or even having to remove the rivet to take the lock completely off you can save the rim.
You can re rivet or tack weld the rivet head back in place to be able to save the rim. A little touch up with galvanizing color spray paint will last a good while for looks. Just my opinion.

User avatar

Topic author
ivaldes1
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am
First Name: Ignacio
Last Name: Valdes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
Location: Houston, Tx
MTFCA Number: 50406
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:07 pm

Thank you for all the advice. I drew out a 22 inch circle and am checking the roundness. I've tried bending on my vise as that's the only thing I have that will more or less work to tweak it back to round. It so far is not easy to do. Here is a picture after some bending. Still not round.
Attachments
IMG_0177.jpg


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by Allan » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:36 pm

Ford did not use flaps in clincher tyres, but I would be amazed if flaps were not used in split rims. They are more important than ever with today's inferior quality thin tubes.

Allan from down under.


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by Allan » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:46 pm

On a different track, hot dip galvanising deposits a thick coating of zinc in all areas. This coating on moving parts will seize them up just as soldering them together will, except that the zinc coating is harder and will not respond to heat as easily as solder does. A better process, but a less durable one, would be electro plated zinc. The coating is thinner, but more even. In addition, the electro plating process results in joints/gaps creating pockets of resistance to plating where two components are adjacent, resulting in freer joints.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
ivaldes1
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am
First Name: Ignacio
Last Name: Valdes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
Location: Houston, Tx
MTFCA Number: 50406
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: 21 inch split rim the Good the Bad the Ugly

Post by ivaldes1 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:00 pm

I have about 3 and a half wheels now. A working rim spreader arrived in the mail just in time Friday to replace my broken one. That was very fortunate. I changed to MAPP gas to heat and free the remaining galvanized locks. The first wheel was not straightened and is slightly kinked. The second one was the worst of the bunch. I straightened it as well as I could with an arbor press but it still isn't quite round but round enough for the wheel to go on. I am giving up on that one for now. The third wheel was and hopefully still is round but was hell on earth to get the rim sides to line up. The fourth and last wheel flap for some reason kept on coming out which resulted in a wrestling match. The last wheel in the foreground was a 'Bimel' and looks very much like a Model T wheel and is very close but not close enough in its dimensions to fit. The wheel holes are slightly too low for the bolts to fit. I may have to get another front wheel and paint it. So I had hoped to get this done this weekend and have a rolling chassis. Close, but no cigar.
Attachments
IMG_0180.jpg

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic