High speed clutch adjustment

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Joe Schrepfer
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High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Joe Schrepfer » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 am

I recently got back a model T that had a frame off restoration. Drove it for 6 to 7 miles. The high speed clutch was slipping quite a bit by the time I got home. I believe a jack rabbit clutch was installed. Opened the trans cover, found some other issues. What I would like to know is, should the starting adjustment on this clutch be the same as described for a ford clutch? What I found was the distance between the clutch hub and driven plate ( hope those are correct terms) is about 1/2 to 9/16 of an inch. It should be 13/16. And the spring is about 2 1/4 inches with brake arm all the way forward. To me it seems like there may be some missing plates. And yes if it has to be gotten into I will put a ford clutch pack.


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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:04 am

My first thought is to take it straight back to the guy who built the engine/transmission, but if distances are as you say, you don't anyway near have things set up right and that may point to lack of experience on the part of the guy who set it up. I'm in no position to pass judgement on that...that would be up to you. At first blush it does sound like a lack of proper number of clutch disks, though. If it is a non-Ford clutch as you suspect, much more driving and it will be history. Personally I wouldn't want more of that material floating around in the oil, so would work to remedy it sooner than later.

What a sad story.
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by TonyB » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:52 am

Unless you intend to sue, in which case I cannot advise you.
However if you want to try to correct the problem, I would set up the 13/16 correctly and then measure the spring length. If the length then measures 2” then the clutch pack is probably close to ok. If the 13/16 is correct and the spring is not 2” then the clutch pack is toast. It can be fixed without removing the motor according to the Ford handbook but I prefer to remove the motor from the chassis.
The 13/16 is critical to match the clutch internals to work correctly with the external cams and pedals. Just because the clutch measures 2”, it does not necessarily mean the spring is good or bad but is more a measurement of the height of the clutch disks. Don’t forget that on early brake drums, up to about 1914 I think, the first disk is thicker than the rest. Most after market suppliers ignore this change.
The original spring has a pressure of 90 pounds at 2” compression. Most experienced restorers prefer a little higher pressure of 115 pound at 2” for the modern clutch packs such as the Chuevy 400, the Jack Rabbit and the Watts.
I like to work to the solution not looking back to blame.
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Mark Gregush
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:19 pm

Here is a link to Snyder's, it has a link to the instruction page.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/jack-rabbit-clutch
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:28 pm

I believe the spacer Tony mentioned in the earlier transmissions is part #3330. It looks like the other clutch disks, but is thicker. I ran into trouble with the one in my 1915 when wear in the face of the brake drum allowed it to get stuck between the brake drum and the clutch drum. I was in permanent high gear until I could take the transmission apart and fix the problem. While this was an early transmission, I think it could happen with a later one also. This has nothing to do with your clutch slipping, but if you have to get into your transmission to deal with that, check the face of the brake drum for wear. If there is any, get a better drum.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:41 pm

Joe

rereading your post and doing some more thinking, I am wondering if a Turbo 400 kit was installed without adding more Ford disks as necessary. This kit needs one or two "extra" disks as necessary to hit the 13/16" distance and spring at 2". With this kit, or any other non-stock clutch, a stronger modern clutch spring is strongly suggested. The original spring, if used, should exert 90+ lbs force at 2" deflection...if not, a new heavier spring should be used for positive lock up. The one thing these things will NOT tolerate, is slipping.

Best of luck getting this fixed with a minimum of effort and angst.
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Joe Schrepfer
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Joe Schrepfer » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:35 pm

Thank you, gentlemen, you are confirming my suspicious.


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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Alan Long » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:31 am

The Fibre Plates used in Jack Rabbit and the Turbo Hydramatic 400 are the same material and unlike the original steel plates
can not be slipped as they just get fried very quickly. Sounds like a dodgy installation and adjustment job to me. Also check that the Top steel plate has the outer lugs so it doesn’t try to rotate the pressure plate
Alan

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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:09 am

Hi, I just finished my frame off restoration after 8 years on my Touring 1911 and I face up issue with my Turbo 400 I bought at Lang's. I tried to correct the problem without success no matter I set up the 13/16 correctly and then measure the spring length at 2” then the clutch look to stretch . The 13/16 is correct and the spring is at 2”, maybe I need to remove 1 disc to allow less pressure? Hope It can be fixed without removing the motor according to the Ford handbook .
Regular first 2 disk look pretty good when I installed them. If I try to move the Hand crank without jacking the car, the car moved forward. If I jack the car, rear Wheel moved either. Not able to move the car itself without dolly. Look I'm in the high gear all the times. It is my second times I installed Turbo 400 and On my first car I never face up this kind of challenge.

Any suggestions or thoughts before removing this engine and transmission because it is not an any task... And I'm afraid to damage my new paint. Here bellow transmission picture and also my car.

I'm a bit discourages.

Kind regards,

Mario
Transmission.jpg
1911.jpg
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project

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John Warren
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by John Warren » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:51 am

Joe , With the cover off, check to see if arms bottoming out against the clutch face. You can turn the adjustment screws in some to get clearance thus applying more pressure to the clutch.
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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:16 am

Hi John,

I already did that without any success. I will make tonight one more half turn and see if something change.
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:28 am

No matter what clutch pack you use, the stack needs to be 1 1/8" tall to get things to line up correctly with the large disk on top and bottom. Quick visual check, can you see the pins on the push ring when the clutch fingers are relaxed (good) or are they down inside the holes in the drive plate (not good)? I am think too, that there are one or two disks missing, that measurement is too short.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:12 am

Hi Mark,

What you said it could be applied for a turbo 400 either?
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:50 am

Yes, that is why extra disks are used to get the correct stack height. I would just use the large disks to get correct height as long as you end up with large disks on top and bottom. The pins on the ring still need to come thru the drive plate X distance so the adjusters on the fingers can work correctly.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:18 am

Hi Mark,


I just opened my transmission, and I have exactly 1 1/8" tall... Previously I followed the Modern turbo disc instruction for 1916 and later because I used a 1926 transmission. I installed 2 large discs in the brake drum and alterning the 400 discs with Large discs and ending with 2 large Discs. Maybe, I'm better to finish with one disc to avoid my problem having a transmission stuck in high speed?

All old large discs were in good shape no cracks and wrapage, My spring is brand new either with 2'' height. Also I have the 13/16 space between the bottom of the push ring and the flange of the clutch cover

Any thoughts?


I will try to post pictures.
Super Mario Bross ;)

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1914 race car project

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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:38 am

E8F8DAAF-9DC7-4B3F-90FD-410425B51E48.jpeg
F8AB85C8-1858-4E3C-BD2E-478401B76D70.jpeg
03A8CC1A-9363-4E80-AF88-9E954F63784E.jpeg
Super Mario Bross ;)

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1914 race car project

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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:48 am

When I said '' I just opened my transmission, and I have exactly 1 1/8" tall it is all discs together. When I made my measurement from the bottom of the Iug, I have 11/4'' height as you see in the picture. So which measurement is the right one?
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:05 pm

Also, another questions, 1 large disc is enough for a 1926 transmission? Not need 2 like early transmission?

I'm ready to go ahead with my discs but waiting some confirmation before. :)
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:51 pm

Correct it is the stack of clutch disks that will be 1-1/8 for the 26/27 drum you are using, not the drums them self. The 13/16 is a starting point for adjustment, not the final. Have you checked the strength of the spring? While not the best it can be done on a bathroom scale. Put the spring on the the scale and press down to where the spring is 2 inches tall. The reading should be at least 110-115 or better. It would be better to use a spring strength scale but will work in a pinch.
Unless the replaceable lugs are gulled up, 2 on top and 2 on the bottom would not matter or any combination as long as there is at least one large disk TOP and BOTTOM and =s 1-1/8" stack.
The early spacer disk was three disk thick.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:47 am

I was able to start for the first time my 1911 touring after following all instructions. Sound magical. Thank you all for the input. MTFCA members were awesome. I will try to post a quick video, she run smooth as well

1911 rest 11.JPG
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
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Quickm007
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Re: High speed clutch adjustment

Post by Quickm007 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:24 pm

Here a quick Video in the goal to hear for the first time Engine running. No fency video, all natural moment, took by wife live. Sorry I spoke in French on the Video, I come from East part of Canada. We spoke English and French. But nothing to see with France, we are Canadian and leaving in North America. I was so please to heard the engine for the first time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy31pv1vYtc
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project

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