babbit thrust washers

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
paulgriesse
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:35 pm
First Name: paul
Last Name: griesse
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 touring 1912 touring
Location: granville ohio
Board Member Since: 2003

babbit thrust washers

Post by paulgriesse » Sun May 02, 2021 5:31 pm

Recent discussion -----Do early Model Ts have babbit thrust washers? When did Ford START using them? Thanks, Paul


Sarikatime
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:47 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Seress
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 Towncar, 1915 Touring
Location: Prescott, Arizona
MTFCA Number: 27707

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by Sarikatime » Sun May 02, 2021 5:33 pm

You are referring to the clamshell 12 rear axle, right?


Kerry
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: van Ekeren
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 touring, 1916 pick-up, 1924 coupe, 1926 touring, 1927 touring
Location: Rosedale Vic Australia

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by Kerry » Sun May 02, 2021 6:07 pm

From the start, parts books list the 2528 thrust washer as babbitt, By Feb 1915 listed as Bronze then in 1916 changed to listed as metal. Which I'm sure is the mix of crap like pot metal that is mostly found that falls apart over time.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by DanTreace » Sun May 02, 2021 9:39 pm

From 1914-15 Ford Methods and the Ford Shops:



Image 5-2-21 at 9.35 PM.jpeg
Image 5-2-21 at 9.35 PM.jpeg (78.6 KiB) Viewed 2304 times
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun May 02, 2021 11:57 pm

Here's the large print version for us elderly readers. :)

Screen Shot 2021-05-02 at 10.51.35 PM.png
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Topic author
paulgriesse
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:35 pm
First Name: paul
Last Name: griesse
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 touring 1912 touring
Location: granville ohio
Board Member Since: 2003

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by paulgriesse » Mon May 03, 2021 9:38 am

I still have the "question"----does my unrestored 1912 touring have babbit thrust washers? I tested axle movement some time ago and there wasn`t any "play". I`ve always assumed it has metal (brass/bronze) thrust washers. Seems like this is true until aprox. 1914, per Dan T.s article. Had a similar case with my restored 1911 Touring----To the best of my knowlege, the rear axle was never rebuilt. Thanks for any additional input----Paul


got10carz
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Meixner
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911,13,14,19,23,25,26,27
Location: Moorhead MN
MTFCA Number: 28023
MTFCI Number: 20471

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by got10carz » Mon May 03, 2021 9:46 am

My 1911 with the correct axle had babbit thrust washers. Only makes sense to me 1912 did also.


Kerry
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: van Ekeren
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 touring, 1916 pick-up, 1924 coupe, 1926 touring, 1927 touring
Location: Rosedale Vic Australia

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by Kerry » Mon May 03, 2021 6:05 pm

Well I would assume because a bronze thrust washer was never available as a part listed until the short period of 1915, then it would be babbitt. Then the demand for brass for the war effort made short work of keeping it. Car builders were just lucky to get enough to build radiators with brass by then.


Rich Bingham
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 runabout
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by Rich Bingham » Tue May 04, 2021 11:33 am

As the thrust washers were supplanted by bronze in 1915, we might confidently assume the early ones were indeed a true babbitt alloy. The clipping above showing machine methods on babbitt washers would seem to attest to this.

Here's the thing : the post 1915 "babbitt" washers were not babbitt of the type of alloy materials used in mains and rod bearings. They were "pot metal" i.e., lead/zinc/antimony/etc. Variations which could be "precision cast" obviating the need for machining. In the main, they served perfectly well for many decades, but the alloy is subject to guaranteed, literal self-destruction with time, causing the grief of rear axle failures in later years when they began disintegrating. First indicator is the appearance of the "grey death" in the differential lube.
"Get a horse !"

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue May 04, 2021 12:23 pm

Pot metal was not only used in thrust washers. Some speedometer bodies, timers, and other auto parts were made of it, also with unfortunate long-term results.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Dropacent
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925TT, 1926 Martin-Parry bodied wagon, 1927 mercury bodied speedster
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Re: babbit thrust washers

Post by Dropacent » Tue May 04, 2021 1:55 pm

Not all “potmetal” is bad. That’s actually a generic term. Back in the day it was a miracle metal. Diecast is another term, but that means just what you think. Items were cast in a metal die to very close tolerance. There are antique auto items I stay away from like the plaque. Most , but not all A-C speedometers, for one. Some late Stewart speedos are another. However, there are also a good many items that are good to this day if you are careful with them. From my memory, I believe the additive of lead to the potmetal mix was/is the culprit. It’s called intergranular corrosion. That’s where the “potmetal” appears to be growing in size and cracking. My feeling is the ford washers have all done their duty well, but like a player piano, they just ain’t gonna work no mo after 100 years!!

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic