MTFCA Forum

When did model T's stop being cool as model T's? (when did model T's as they came from the factory, stop being cool?) So many postings on the forum now seem to be about taking the charming model T characteristics out of the model T. Such things as a 12 volt electrical system, alternators, adding a distributor, speedster bodies, adding bling, fuel pumps, water pumps, modern spark plugs, fuel filters, model A wire wheels, etc., etc., etc....

I have owned, restored, and driven model T's for 50 years. I have never gotten tired of hearing the sound of buzzing coils, barfing coolant, and the sick cow horn. I find the lack of modern automotive basics like oil pump, water pump, and fuel pump to be one of the major talking points when discussing model T's with someone who has never seen one. I restored my 26 coupe back in the 1970's and strived to bring it back to as manufactured condition. I painted it channel green, and in those days the best guess was model A Kiwanee green, or at least that is what Les Henry said it was. Of course there was a never ending, non solicited, general public and even some old time model T "experts" that would politely point out that I was not old enough to know, but all model T's were painted black. Doing it right was as much a priority as doing it well. There were car shows where people wanted to have their model T judged. There was a real sense of trying to get it correct, the saying was "authenticity or nothing". When did that go away? It must have come on so slowly that I didnt notice, like putting a frog in water and bringing it to a boil.

Your car, your business, but if you don't like the characteristics of a model T why have a model T?

Humblej wrote: ↑

Thu May 06, 2021 2:05 pm

When did model T's stop being cool as model T's? So many postings on the forum now seem to be about taking the charming model T characteristics out of the model T. Such things as a 12 volt electrical system, alternators, adding a distributor, speedster bodies, adding bling, fuel pumps, water pumps, modern spark plugs, fuel filters, model A wire wheels, etc., etc., etc....

It's always been that way, since day one! Have you ever seen the ads for Model T accessories from the teens and twenties? Most of the things you mentioned were available way back then as well. No different today. The very simplicity of the Model T invites change! Always has...

As has been said many times; people started "updating" it all most from the day it rolled out of the factory in 1908! "the saying was "authenticity or nothing". When did that go away?" My OP is; it has never gone away, but neater have the people that can't keep their OP to themself, esp the ones that think they know everything esp when not asked. Not everyone one wants a pea in the pod car nor can everyone afford to restore their car to 100% factory (if there was really ever such thing). The Dodge Brothers guys sure don't seem to have the same hang up when it comes to factory, esp seeing some of the cool colors their cars are.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Thu May 06, 2021 2:15 pm

Humblej wrote: ↑

Thu May 06, 2021 2:05 pm

When did model T's stop being cool as model T's? So many postings on the forum now seem to be about taking the charming model T characteristics out of the model T. Such things as a 12 volt electrical system, alternators, adding a distributor, speedster bodies, adding bling, fuel pumps, water pumps, modern spark plugs, fuel filters, model A wire wheels, etc., etc., etc....

It's always been that way, since day one! Have you ever seen the ads for Model T accessories from the teens and twenties? Most of the things you mentioned were available way back then as well. No different today. The very simplicity of the Model T invites change! Always has...

I agree, i mean besides perhaps the Jeep, i doubt any other car has ever had so many different, unique accessories. Currently I have a highly modified 26, a 14 that is mostly stock save a **gasp**, E-timer, Warford, and original rockies, and a bone stock 27 Canadian car (including having the vaporizer) which the only thing i am doing to it is adding juice brakes. I don't consider unreliable brakes to be charming or cool I live on a big, long hill, with stops on the hill so rockies are out (at least the reproduction rockies)

Doing it right was as much a priority as doing it well.

For all have sinned...

This is like "What kind of oil?". The discussion has been going on for a long, long time. Some folks think there are two camps, one camp being those who apply "upgrades" willy-nilly and the other camp being the folks often derided as "purists". I see purity as a spectrum. at one end are the small number of people who go to great lengths to be as "original" as they can in every detail. At the other end are the willy-nilly folks. I believe most of us are somewhere in between. Even the sticklers are rarely 100% pure. Very few still use cast iron pistons, original valves, ball bearings in their front wheels, or strictly "correct" tires. In my case, while I'm nearer the pure end of the spectrum and prefer my drivers to be mostly stock, I'm not above installing a FP pinion bearing, a magneto battery charger, electric tail lights and turn signals, and a few other unobtrusive concessions to safety or convenience. If anybody wants to criticize one of my cars as too correct or too incorrect, that's fine. Everybody's entitled to his own ill-informed and silly opinion.

People have been adding stuff and taking stuff off Ts almost since day one, same as Harley Davidson motorcycles. Now that Ts aren't so common anymore, I'd rather that people who want a highly modified cars use the available new frames and body parts to build their T buckets and such like, rather than gutting and chopping the dwindling supply of more or less original parts. My preference is stock or near stock. Your preferences may differ. Many modifications can add to reliabilty and durability in near stock cars without requiring obviouss or irreversible changes to the car. I don't see any issue with such changes. Better a person run a Scat crank in a car than sling the rods through a good original block, break a crank, or burn down a nice T for lack of a fuse or master disconnect. As far as I know, strictly original paint is unavailable for most Ts, so some innovation is unavoidable. For anything other than a static display car, some modern parts will be a necessity, even if it's only tires. (It is rumored that Geraldo Rivera knows of a long lost sub-basement storeroom at Fair Lane that contains a perfectly preserved stash of Henry Ford's own pre-war Firestone tires which he had hidden away during the war years to avoid the scrap rubber drives)

Who says model T's aren't cool?

I think what made the Model T a cool car was the fact it was the most modifiable car that was ever made. When I look at pictures of Model T's from the 1920s there are always the little modifications like mirrors and step plates, but there are also big modifications like skis and snow tracks to make it a early snowmobile. How many people tore the back off their Model T's off to add a pickup bed? How may Model T's were converted to popcorn wagons or into some early version of a motorhome? Henry tried to make them all the same to cut costs, but everyone who bought one made changes to make the car their own.
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I believe you can make period correct improvements and still be a purist. I believe you can add safety modifications like brake lights and turn signals for safety and still be a purist. When you change out the flathead for a modern engine and suspension system you are no longer a purist.

I like em all, prefer mostly stock but thats my old truck. T's are still cool. Last Saturday I attended a car show with over 500 vehicles, my t had a heck of a crowd most of the show...

Just ask most 10-year-old boys if your model T is cool or not. Children have an unbiased eye because they don’t care whether the car has electronic ignition or a roller timer on it or tail lights or oil lights. They just think cars like ours are nothing but cool. Just drive down any small town Street where kids are out playing. Almost for sure they will stop and look at your car go by. That’s got to be one of the best feelings in the world for me. I like my car to look mostly stock but be as reliable and safe as I can make it. Safe for me, my passengers and other motorists.

I was at a car show last month. I was the only car there that was what I would call antique. It was all 60s and up sports cars and race cars. If anyone wants to say that my model T is not cool then why is it the cover photo on their Instagram page. Trust me I was surprised too!

Just get out enjoy your car and let everyone else enjoy you enjoying your car.

Good reply Brian! I agree totally. Frankly, I made my '25/'26 "overlap" Fordor even cooler by adding RM brakes to be sure to stop better, and yes, an alternator to be sure the battery stayed charged, and the lights stayed bright when I turned them on! Got tired of fighting with the tired old generator, so I went outside my comfort zone and went "modern" with the alternator. Best decision I ever made. My '11 is full of "modifications" from a previous owner who toured seriously and wanted all the things to make it "cooler", i.e. safer and run more reliably. That's the reason I bought it. I set purism aside for realism. Cool is what you make of it.

All mine are only cool prior to start-up. Then they become un-cool to varying degrees!

Allan from down under.

Exactly Tim. I can’t see any of my mods from the driver’s seat going down the road with the hood down except the USB plug. Henry would probably roll over in his grave if he saw me with a laptop computer and an ECCT hooked to the magneto to diagnose it. Funny.

Great topic here. I’ve enjoyed it.

My 14 runabout has a ruckstell and Rockies, otherwise pretty stock. I drove without those for quite some time. Everything is modified on my speedster except the front wishbone. The body is older than my 26 coupe, so I guess modifications aren’t anything new.

Andy

Horn sounding like a sick cow? I thought they sounded like a duck. Waa waa.
Never. Still cool. Class never goes away. Plus the fact that only we know how to drive them.
Neat thread!
EDIT: Oops, I do use a 12 volt battery to fire the coils until the mag can take over.

The original poster is correct. At some point of change the car simply stops being a Model T. We are dealing with a sliding scale. At one end is the AACA 400 point car, at the other end the T-bucket with some huge engine exploding out from the chassis. All, to some at least, qualify as Model T, all express someone's concept of Model T. I am with the original poster. A Model T will run down the road just fine exactly as it came from the factory. I am tempted to install AC brakes because I live in a fairly mountainous area and I want to stay alive, but maybe the fear of coming down a steep mountain road will keep me from going up that road and burning the front main bearing from the oil running backward downhill. When I had the engine professionally rebuilt (it was on its last legs and needed more machining than I could do) I had a ring gear installed on the flywheel (1912 car) in case I ever get too old or infirm to grasp the handle and apply the armstrong starter. Should that evil day ever arrive it may be better to discover the Model A, I don't know. In the meantime my cars are as stock as it is reasonably possible to maintain. I find that a very good bit of the appeal of Model T, or any other automobile of similar vintage, is understanding, using, and enjoying the technology of the day; I want to experience what "they" experienced, broadens one's historical knowledge and outlook. I am fairly proud that when you see, hear, and smell my Model T coning down the road, oil leaks and all, you are seeing a Model T, not something that looks like a Model T with a lot of modern gizmos inside making it "run better". OK, I lied, I put Kevlar bands in the tranny; changing Scandinavians really is tedious, I know from experience that started 59 years ago when my first car, a 1924 Model T Fordor came home on my 16th birthday, in parts.

Amen Thomas!

The mods I've made to my 1917 are invisible to the untrained observer and all chosen to enhance safety.
1.) Starter - I'm in my 70's and broken bones take a long time to heal...I was taught that lesson by a Ford tractor.
2.) Disc brakes - a couple of close calls on the hills of southern Indiana....
3.) LED lights - see and be seen.... 'nuff said.
4.) Brake light - Hey! I'm stopping here!
5.) Dipstick - my old knees don't allow for checking oil the old way.
6.) Safety glass - I have a new interior and don't want to get it all bloody.
7.) Side mirrors - I like to check my "six" to make sure I'm not surprised by a bandit on my tail.
8.) Someone waaaay back installed demountable wheels - I have no interest in changing them as any time spent fixing flats at the side of the road is dangerous. If I can quickly put a spare on and get moving I reduce my time as a target. As a result I added a spare tire mount by the dummy door on the left.
9.) I added a bulb horn because I give rides at our local museum and sometimes need to "gently" warn people that I'm heading their way. Blasting the electric horn just seems rude.

That said, I don't know if my car is cool, but I went to a local park for ice cream last week and a couple came up and spent several minutes talking to me about the car. As they walked away I heard the husband say "Now that car is really BadAss!"

I have 3 T’s. My Grandfathers and 2 others that I restored.
I’m 73 years old and been around T’s 60 plus years. Since then they have in my view starting to be viewed has a cool curiosity since we started moving into a internet driven and fast moving society.
And yes guys who are 60 and up still are viewing them as old cars we grew up around that our Fathers and Granfathers had.
The newer generations see them as quaint, low tech vehicles that are old old school and almost out of place in today’s world.
There is of course interest in T’s by a few younger folks but not quiet the way we old and older folks see them.
My opinion of course.

Model T’s are much cooler now than they were when they were being manufactured and driven by millions in the tens, teens, twenties and thirties. Ford brilliantly capitalized on this and used it to their advantage as Ford Joke books were published and the spindly Model T became the car of choice by silent movie directors as funny props in Keystone Cops, Buster Keaton, Harold Lloyd and Laurel and Hardy movie shorts, providing free advertising to millions of movie goers who saw that the T had to be a very tough and well built car to endure the punishment meted out in the movies and still keep going. Just the thing for the farm and, most importantly, afFORDable. In fact, it is the revival of the Laurel and Hardy movie shorts that were a staple of early television in the 50’and 60’s that sparked a resurgence of interest in the Model T. By then, Model T’s had become beloved and “cool”. Jim Patrick

Myself, I prefer 'em just like Mr Ford made 'em.

Another seldom seen view of the Laurel and Hardy T.

My preference is: I like them original

My opinion is: I don't give a rat's patootie what you do with yours. I have not one iota of concern if it's purple, 12V, is a '21 covered in brass bling, or anything else that doesn't risk getting me killed if I drive near you.

Now, I will give a couple examples why I dislike some modified cars, especially with hydraulic brakes: Years ago I took my dad's depot hack to a National Tour in the Black Hills. Recent rebuild from Ron's Machine, and at that time, no Ruckstell. Car ran great. The local Model A club were the "trouble trucks" for the tour and they racked up cumulatively, more than 2000 miles (!!) fetching broken T's. We made it just fine...so what's my gripe??

Well, when you have a Ruckstell (or in the case of MANY participants, a Ruckstell and a 3 speed auxiliary transmission - 12 speeds!!!) you can approach any hill at 25 MPH and climb a tree...me, I am driving a Model T and needed a run at the hill and ALWAYS ended up in low gear because I couldn't charge the hill...the guy ahead of me just "shifted" and away he went. RUDE and THOUGHTLESS. On top of that, there was one guy who could be counted on CURSING me as he went up the hill around me. Nice.

The best one was the guy with a 12 speed T and hydraulic brakes who HAD to stop on some of the damnedest inclines to let his other half take a picture...I'm in low gear without a prayer of restarting the car if I have to stop, so am forced to pass (in this case on a blind curve) and risk life and limb. Once he got rolling again, he passed me and became the 2nd guy who cursed me. Double nice.

Sadly, one of those 12 speed specials allowed himself to get caught between gears, rolled backwards, rolled the car and by the grace of God the occupants were not killed, though they were pretty badly hurt, and the car was pretty close to being killed...if it hadn't been a very early car, it would have not been worth rebuilding.

Bottom line: once an owner gets their car all spiffy with hydraulic brakes and plenty of gears, they frequently become STUPID and drive their car like it's a Honda and make foolish and dangerous decisions that affect themselves and everyone around them. Sell that car to a novice and they WILL be dangerous, thinking it is "just like any other car".

I used to enjoy tours because I was "equally yoked" with drivers of similar vehicles, all attuned to what their car could and couldn't do, drove appropriately and sure as hell never cursed at another Model T for "going too slow".

You can modify your car all you want in this regard, but once I see those brakes, I won't or at least will try not to get within miles of you.

Scott, I hear you, man ! So far, all my T touring has been solo, and often
involves hauling lumber, concrete, hay, firewood, and boulders. I see smiling
faces everywhere I go, and I never have to deal with those things you mention.

I agree with Tommy and Scott. I like them original. My only gripes are the guy in front of me with modern brakes and no brake lights. Maybe he can stop on a dime, I cannot. Put your arm out and let me know you are going to stop in the middle of no where. Or the guy that is going up a hill and has to go into low. I am also going into low, but why are you also dropping your throttle to a crawl. It is not easy to pass in low. Please keep your throttle up.

The only modification I've made to my drive train is to replace the 11 tooth pinion with a 10 tooth. I live in mostly flat country but my experiences touring in hilly areas showed that a slightly lower gear ratio has advantages. I have no interest in a ruckstell or auxiliary transmission but have nothing against those who do.

I love the safety provided by my disc brakes. That said, only the most dire situation would cause me to "stomp" on them. With clinchers there is the chance of spinning the tires on the rims and ripping the valve stems off with too aggressive braking.

I have a very bright brake lights, good mirrors and When driving with other Model T's I try to position myself so there is space between me and the cars in front and in back. Some groups are better at road discipline than others and I believe it is a good idea to go over the basic rules of touring with those you'll be traveling with before setting out. When touring, I prefer to travel with people I know whenever possible which reduces most of the variables. To my knowledge, I have never been cursed by another T driver for my driving but that would be on them, not me.

I agree, Model T's should be 100% correct as they were in the day. Anything less is morally degenerate! This photo illustrates my point:
There are so many things wrong with this car, it is no wonder the dog has to look away!!

Will some one please tell these people that they are an EMBARASMENT to the hobby! They need to stay home and not show their faces and automobile around these parts until they get their vehicle CORRECTED!!

You are absolutely right Wayne. I can't see how they could stand for that.
Rich

I think each car tells a different story. If it spent most of it's life in a garage, I could tolerate some new rubber and a few paint blemishes,
but if it was restored faithfully from a pile of junk, I can forgive a lot more modernities. What I find hard to tolerate is a customized "hot rod."

I'm not much of a hot rod fan, either. But credit where it is due, some of those rodders do some incredible work. Once I realized nobody cared if I liked them or not and I started seeing them for what they are (and in a lot of cases what they started as), I was impressed. And I found hot rod guys are less critical of others' cars than purists, but they enjoy seeing the stock stuff, too.

Here's the dilemna...

I have a T that has magneto headlights. We all know the extreme light out put of those headlights (traveling at the speed of dark!). Add to the fun, if one light goes out, so go they both. Blackout. Wheee....

Add to this the '15 taillights have a flaw where on the tourings, the wind generated around the car puts the light out. A problem that they fixed later on, but if you have a '15 with the "earlier" style taillight, after about 500 yards (give or take, usually take) it's done gone and blown out. First time was when a car came right up on my rear and slammed on the brakes because they were abot 30 feet from turning my car into an unintentional roadster.

So mod 1 was changing the burner out for a bulb base, putting a 28 volt lamp in said base, and running a line from the headlight switch to the now-un-blow-outable taillight - but heavens, I've modified the T from a design that Ford redesigned because it was a bad one to something much safer. but since it didn't come from the factory that way... And to make matters worse, I put red retroreflective tape strips on the rear axle, so if I DO lose the taillight, someone behind me can see there's something in front of them. TOTALLY inauthentic.

That begets mod 2 - stop lights. I have an aftermarket stoplight on the car (came with it) but it runs off a battery. So we've gone down the rathole with a non-mag light.

Then to #3 - How hard would it be to run my headlight lead not from the mag post but from the battery post? Easy Peasy change, but HEAVENS I've just butchered the poor car again. Safety? Who needs safety, wehn others demand authenticity? Or run a second wire along with the first, and make those headlights independent of one another?

If I were around in 1916 and came across all these issues which were EASILY fixable (except for the reflective tape), would I? Or would I be happy with lousy headlights and a blow-me-out taillight and... well...

I DIG keeping a car as authentic as possible, HOWEVER mine lives in a garage or on the road, not in a museum...

So you tell me. Am I hated by everyone because I made my care safer and more user-friendly, or should I put it back the way it was, and become the "authentic" but moving blacked-out target to make other people happy?

Guess they would really hate mine, with those Chevrolet disk wheels on all for corners! Well I guess I could counter that, still running cast iron pistons from the factory.

From the Automobile, 1908. same year the Model T was released on the public as a 1909 model, two articles of interest. The Model T was out and about around January 1908, but Ford was not fully marketing the 1908 Model T - article states it was decided to test it in actual service before putting it on the market.

Article from July 1908 also has comments from "name withheld" AKA Anti-Brass.

Anti-Brass discusses his perfect ideal car. For him the perfect car is rated at 30 hp, three point suspension, 3 speed/reverse transmission, a magneto of atwater-kent design. detachable rims, thermo-syphon cooling. And rather than brass fittings, the trim should be gunmetal or an oxidized finish. For Anti-Brass, time would be better spent to keep the engine transmission in proper shape. For Anti-Brass, the new car owner is his own chauffeur, and time spent polishing brass can be better spent in the maintenance of a vehicle.

That was in July 1908, by September 1908, came the announcement came from the Ford Motor Company, of a new Ford, that produced 20 hp, removable cylinder head for improved maintenance, and a water pump for cooling, transmission with two speeds forward and a reverse. One of the most radical features of the new car was the ignition system., a magneto that was incorporated as part of the flywheel. A three point suspension system with a 100 inch wheel base. And the article for September 1908 stated that there was no announcement about the colours or finish (trim?)

Frank. Judging by the extreme amount of mud on the driver, the mechanic, the two passengers in the back with goggles and the car, they just finished a cross country endurance race and judging by the wreath on the radiator, they won. The smile on Henry’s face indicates his approval.

Back then, winning an auto race especially an endurance race like this one appears to be, was a big deal to car manufacturers, for it was proof positive of the quality and durability of their product. Jim Patrick

I have to laugh a bit when folks get hot under the collar debating the importance of maintaining our Model T's to be as original as when they came off the line. When new, these cars were not revered as the ultimate expression of automotive artistry. They were cheap and durable, used and abused, seldom the car of choice for someone who could afford something more stylish. There was little to set one apart from another, especially during the era of black cars. Model T owners back then extensively modified their cars for all of the same reasons we modify our Model T's (or modern cars for that matter) today.

A WWII vet friend of mine (now deceased) once told me that as a boy he worked for his dad's auto parts and salvage yard before the war. His dad used to buy Model T's for $5 and it was his job to remove any parts of value before the rest was scrapped. $5? This was a mere dozen years after the last Model T rolled off the assembly line! Hardly a cherished, classic automobile.

It is only with the passage of a lot of time that the world has come to appreciate the Model T for the role it played in automotive history. No one is alive today who built them nor bought them new. Anyone with first-hand memories of those early days is very, very old. My father, who was ten years old the day my car was built has been dead for 33 years....

While I applaud the efforts of those who strive to maintain their Model T's as original as possible, I also respect those who have striven to maintain the character of their cars while incorporating modifications that old-time Model T owners would have approved of. Our hobby has a big tent....there is room for us all....

I think the real issue isn't "100% original" but a question of taking the car on its own terms and making modifications that won't be regretted later. Some people have mentioned improved braking because they live in hilly areas or adding starters because they are more mature collectors. All those changes strike me as thoughtful responses to real situations, and they can be reversed if an owner wants to make the car more "original."


I tend to be an originalist because I like the "time travel" aspect of vintage cars and am just tired of hearing, "6V sucks, if you want your car to run you need to go to a 12V alternator," or "the original motor made no horsepower and I couldn't get parts at Autozone so I put an LS1 in and now I can drive the car." Some people like to improve things, and that's fine. I think the problem comes from the "improvers" who automatically slap on new stuff before learning the car on its own terms. And that's not just T guys. I see the same attitude with other car guys and professional musicians constantly.

As for "authenticity or nothing," well, it kind of reminds me of the vintage community where it started out as a lot of people with a common love of history or time travel or just enjoying old stuff, and it eventually turned into a constant contest of of who can be more "authentic", "vintage", or "historically accurate" than thou. There are some legendary stories about the Model A points judging world, and it's a shame that what started as trying to do right by the cars turned into paying crazy money for NOS fanbelts and flame wars over the correct tire tread pattern for 1930.

Wait....they're not cool?

Dammit!!

Don't tell my 24 Touring....because of the attention he gets all the time, he thinks he's the bee's knees. (he's developed quite the ego.)

They were cool in 1908; the coolest thing. Even cooler in 1915, but by the mid 20s they were the ugly duckling of the automotive world.

Ford was a lot of things, but his biggest contribution to society was to break the paradigm: "You can have it cheap or good, but not both."
He gave us both.