MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 10:18 pm**

So, I am reading today, and the Model T was built to run on Kerosene, Gasoline, and Ethanol. Why is Ethanol so toxic today, if engines were built to run on it 100 years ago? Thanks..Tommy

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 10:38 pm**

They actually weren't designed to run on ethanol, but in 1907, just about everything was legal, and Henry Ford liked the idea of a farmer being able to make his own fuel from crop waste, which was do-able. Gasoline was not widely available in 1907-1910, but it soon became so as automobiles became numerous and demand soared for gasoline. A Model T could be run on straight ethanol, but it never made much sense, ethanol being the poor fuel that it is. Then the government decided that Americans couldn't hold their liquor, and decided to make producing or posessing ethanol illegal. Kerosene was cheap and widely available early in the 20th Century, but is is also a very poor fuel. You can run a Model T on ethanol, rubbing alcohol, high-proof liquor, or kerosene or diesel. Or you can build a wood gasifier and run on tree branches. Or you could decompose water into hydrogen and oxygen and use the hydrogen for fuel. None of these options is practical, and none will give the power, speed, economy, and driveability that even very poor grades of gasoline will give. All that said, modern store-bought gasoline with up to 10% ethanol will give good results in a Model T, subject to the usual caveats associated with using ethannol-adulterated gasoline. I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure you could sucessfully run a stock Model T on E-85. You'd have to choke the heck out of it and open the carburetor adjustment way up, but if it ever started and got warmed up, it would probably run just fine, with perhaps some reduction in maximum power and fuel mileage. It would be a little more difficult to run on straight ethanol, but it could be done. I've run a John Deere E 1 1/2 horsepower engine on rubbing alcohol... 30% water and 70% isopropyl alcohol. Rubbing alcohol sells for about $20.00 a gallon these days. A JD E is a low compression, single-cylinder engine with a low tension magneto and a simple carburetor that can be adjusted for high fuel flow. It runs a lot better on gasoline.

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 10:44 pm**

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Sat May 22, 2021 10:38 pm
They actually weren't designed to run on ethanol, but in 1907, just about everything was legal, and Henry Ford liked the idea of a farmer being able to make his own fuel from crop waste, which was do-able. Gasoline was not widely available in 1907-1910, but it soon became so as automobiles became numerous and demand soared for gasoline. A Model T could be run on straight ethanol, but it never made much sense, ethanol being the poor fuel that it is. Then the government decided that Americans couldn't hold their liquor, and decided to make producing or posessing ethanol illegal. Kerosene was cheap and widely available early in the 20th Century, but is is also a very poor fuel. You can run a Model T on ethanol, rubbing alcohol, high-proof liquor, or kerosene or diesel. Or you can build a wood gasifier and run on tree branches. Or you could decompose water into hydrogen and oxygen and use the hydrogen for fuel. None of these options is practical, and none will give the power, speed, economy, and driveability that even very poor grades of gasoline will give. All that said, modern store-bought gasoline with up to 10% ethanol will give good results in a Model T, subject to the usual caveats associated with using ethannol-adulterated gasoline. I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure you could sucessfully run a stock Model T on E-85. You'd have to choke the heck out of it and open the carburetor adjustment way up, but if it ever started and got warmed up, it would probably run just fine, with perhaps some reduction in maximum power and fuel mileage. It would be a little more difficult to run on straight ethanol, but it could be done. I've run a John Deere E 1 1/2 horsepower engine on rubbing alcohol... 30% water and 70% isopropyl alcohol. Rubbing alcohol sells for about $20.00 a gallon these days. A JD E is a low compression, single-cylinder engine with a low tension magneto and a simple carburetor that can be adjusted for high fuel flow. It runs a lot better on gasoline.

Thanks..just seems remarkable, that we are using ethanol 100 years later, and it is considered new technology.

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 11:49 pm**

Due to the fact that 10% ethanol blended gasoline deteriorates and goes bad so rapidly (3 months), I only run my T, mower and yard tools on regular, non ethanol gasoline. I don’t drive my T very much and cannot go through a full tank in three months. I have a 55 gallon drum in my shed which I keep full of non ethanol gas for all of my needs. I have a place I go to and buy non ethanol gas and pump it into 5 gallon cans, which I treat with “Stabil” and “Marvel Mystery Oil” before pouring the treated gas into the drum. Treated in this way, it lasts for years. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 5:26 am**

For ethanol free gas in your area, go to pure-gas.org and search first your state, then your city to find outlets selling ethanol free gasoline.

One thing to watch out for; this site is updated by anyone using the sight so the comments may or may not be correct for TODAY. You'll have to check them out before making the trip to the station.

Good Luck,
Terry

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 8:30 am**

I prefer non-ethanol fuel for any engine that is not being used regularly. Ethanol-adulterated fuel will deteriorate, and in doing so, it can completely destroy a fuel system, from cap to carburetor. I have seen decayed ethanol blended fuel lock the valves in a 5-month-old lawn mower engine, and it was VERY difficult to free them up. Dad had some leftover E-10 gas in a gallon jug in late fall, when he bought a new mower at a discount. Being tight, he saved the gas for next season. BAD MOVE. The mower was able to start on the soured fuel, but it after sputtering for a couple of minutes, it stopped dead and could not be restarted. Stuck valves. Non-ethanol fuel costs a lot, since it usually carries a premium price, plus you are being taxed to subsidize the production of both corn and ethanol, whether you use any or not. Ethanol fuel will decay faster under hot, humid conditions than under cool, dry conditions. Sunlight attacks any gasoline, but it seems to destroy ethanol blended fuel more quickly. Any gasoline, especially ethanol blended gasoline, ought to be stored in a cool dry place in a metal container that is vented, but capable of holding some pressure. Holding a little pressure on the fuel prevents various components of the blend from evaporating, which is dangerous, and which hastens the decay of the gasoline blend. A tight, light-proof, properly-vented container also keeps moisture in the air from being absorbed into the fuel.

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 8:46 am**

Model T fuel systems are vented directly to the atmosphere at both the tank and the carburetor. That makes them more vulnerable to ethanol blended fuel decay than modern vehicles with closed fuel systems, since atmospheric moisture and oxygen has access to the fuel, and elements of the fuel blend, such as co-solvents and octane improvers, can evaporate over time.

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 11:19 am**

What txgoat2 said. I don't drive my T a lot due to the flat, straight Florida roads around here. People drive 50-55 mph and unless the roads are deserted it's dangerous driving a 35 mph car. For that reason I do not use 10% Ethanol adulterated gas in it. I have had one tank of gas go bad and I would prefer not to have it happen again.

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 11:23 am**

Here is the site the Miller’s posted. You can reach it from here: www.pure-gas.org. It has been around for years. I hope they keep it updated for sources can change from day to day due to the pandemic, the over regulated business climate and anti-fossil fuel bias these days. If you find a place, call first before driving there to see they are still in business or are still a source for non-ethanol gas, if it is not banned first, by the government. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 11:30 am**

In my part of Michigan alcohol-free gas has only been available over the last couple of years. It is priced well above E10 gas. It does store better but even pure gas deteriorates with time. I've put it in vehicles that I know are going to sit a long time along with a dose of stabil. I also make a point of running or draining gas out of the carb so it doesn't gum up.

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 1:59 pm**

John, put a Scat crank and nitrous injection on that thing... and a scattershield...

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 2:34 pm**

I can only speak from personal experience. The only troubles I've had that I attribute to E-10 were: 1 The aluminum carburetor on my splitter became clogged with some kind of white powdery residue after it sat for several months; 2 I had to replace the leaking filler hose on a 1973 Suburban. I have read that Ethanol attacks old rubber that wasn't formulated to withstand it, and that current hoses can handle it.

I use whatever gas is least expensive (none of it is cheap), and that is usually E-10. I use it in the Model T's, the Camry, the Suburban, the mowers, the chain saw (with that special oil added), the old Dodge truck, and the tractor. The reason I've had just the two problems mentioned above may be that I use up the stuff before it can go bad.

I did try E-85 in the modern car one time because it was so "cheap". The resulting mileage was so bad that it actually cost more per mile than E-10.

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 2:47 pm**

Don’t put alcohol in a model T. It will get cirrhosis of the flivver.

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 4:13 pm**

This is one of the good, the bad and the ugly questions that will have answers all over the place.

I accepted the mandatory mixes available in NJ and had no issue with my T's. They ran fine!

I shipped one down to Florida and bought whatever the cheapest gas was at a super-station. It then sat for a few months, and then was no-go when I tried to start it. Black goo had decided to invade everything and I mean everything. Had to be something with Florida blend, extreme temperature and humidity and sitting for months at a time. Took me three days to field strip everything and clean it spotless and reassemble...there is still a splat pattern on one wall of the garage that I can't get off as just for kicks I decided to trumpet the fuel line before I used solvent on it and boy did the sludge nail the wall.

Fortunately, Florida still allows the sale of unblended pure gasoline fuel and its not too pricey. The big stations all handle it when by the water...lol. Cheap marine engine fuel...

Here's one for those who may be unknowing. A large local Ford dealer took a 27 in on trade sometime in the 50's and it stayed stored until they decided to start using it for marketing purposes a few years back. I was the one who brought it out of mothballs and taught their certified techs how to do a T up right in the process. Point there is that in the same storage room was large diameter glass tubes with surgical hose all about, Ask them what it was for and they giggled. Turns out they service your car for ragged running and you feel the need to bring it back? They turn the contents of your own gas tank into pure gasoline and then put it back in your tank....most g=cases, problem solved!

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 4:16 pm**

I use aviation gas in all my toys in storage and lo use...it will not go bad...and it runs very well and smells like old memories...

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 5:39 pm**

halftracknut wrote: ↑
Sun May 23, 2021 4:16 pm
I use aviation gas in all my toys in storage and lo use...it will not go bad...and it runs very well and smells like old memories...

Th only issue with aviation gas (100LL) is that despite the low-lead designation it is not low in lead. The 100 LL was developed to replace 100-130 aviation gas that was very high in lead. It is low-lead only in comparison with the good old 100-130. If you use 100 LL you will have to clean your spark plugs more often (then you would have if you used auto gas) and your exhaust system will have a significantly shorter life (then it would have with auto fuel). Aviation gas has a shelf-life of five years.

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 9:13 pm**

Back in the day, gasoline had no alcohol in it. It was pure gasoline. With the introduction of the higher compression engines, it was found to knock (Ping) so tetrethyl lead was added to raise the octane. Regular had a small portion of the lead, and premium had a larger portion of lead. Then the EPA decided that it was not good to get lead in the exhaust or in the unused gas, so the lead was substituted with alcohol. In California, the formula is different between summer and winter. The non leaded and alcohol free gas is not available and the formula of gas is strictly regulated by the state. I use any brand of gas, usually the lowest grade at the lowest price I can find. I have had no problems with my T's. It is good to drain the system if it is to be parked for long periods. It will be OK if the car is used regularly or even if it sits for a few months, but if the gas evaporates, it leaves a sediment which will plug the fuel line. It can also plug the carburetor.
Norm

Posted: **Sun May 23, 2021 10:13 pm**

Norm. I'll take that with a grain of salt, "Back in the day" "It was pure gasoline" I believe the octane was half of today's and still contained Kerosene and some oil as well. It was even used back in the day for pressure fuel cooking stoves. Asian countries still do use gasoline for stoves but many learn the hard way that modern gasoline fumes will explode.

Posted: **Mon May 24, 2021 11:34 am**

Although Ethanol does have some antiknock qualities, it was not used as a substitute for Tetraethyl lead by refiners. There simply was not a large enough supply of Ethanol in the US in 1975 when the lead was phased out of gasoline. Various other chemicals were added to replace the lead. The reason that lead was removed from gasoline is that lead is death on catalytic converters. The reason Ethanol was added was as a sop to the farm lobby. It is a lousy fuel.

Posted: **Mon May 24, 2021 12:47 pm**

John nailed it.

The reason they finally kicked out good ol' Ethyl from your can of gas was it had a detrimental effect on these cute little platinum-impregnated pellets (or coated screens) in this new-fangled device called a Catalytic Converter that helped scrub some of the nasty uglies out of your exhaust... Had nothing to do with human lead toxicity, it had to do with cleaning the skies over places such as LA, where the morning was ripe with the smell of hydrocarbons...

MTBE was supposed to be the great replacement tor TEL (anyone remember the red deposits on spark plugs in place of the lead deposits?), but that ended up WAY more toxic than lead... now what they sell as gasoline has a distant relationship with the tiger we used to put in our tanks...

Speaking of... tricresyl phosphate ("TCP"), a plasticizer and lacquer additive, was also used both as a knock inhibitor and a "lead scrubber" additive to gasoline... I still remember having (years ago) a calender backer ad from (IIRC) Shell in the 50's (we lived a block from the Shell Martinez refinery), hawking "TCP", which was jokingly called "Tom Cat P***"... which is what made your High Compression car haul like a scalded cat (or so the claim was)...

Posted: **Mon May 24, 2021 2:06 pm**

FWIW: The Octane rating of regular auto gas in the USA in 1940 was 70.

Posted: **Mon May 24, 2021 4:44 pm**

Octane rating in the 1920's was between 30 & 60 so why put anything higher in a T

This chart should spur conversation

Posted: **Mon May 24, 2021 5:26 pm**

White lead... Oh! That FIEND.... that Little Dutch Boy!!

Posted: **Mon May 24, 2021 10:31 pm**

The reason that lead was removed from gasoline is that lead is death on catalytic converters...

...and it makes us stupider than we already are.

Posted: **Tue May 25, 2021 12:16 am**

I am just guessing here, but could the reason be that 10% ethanol blended gasoline deteriorates so rapidly, is that ethanol, being a derivative of distilled corn is an organic element from the plant family? We all know what happens to food after a certain period of time. No matter how well you try to preserve it, short of freezing it, it eventually rots. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue May 25, 2021 7:22 am**

One big problem with ethanol is that it is hygroscopic, that is, it absorbs and holds moisture, like old-style brake fluid. Another issue with ethanol-adultered gasoline may be related to the use of various blend elements, like toluene, to improve octane and to facilitate and stabilize the ethanol/gasoline mix. Toluene and related substances can decay over time, probably from oxidation. Actual straight gasoline is very stable when kept away from oxygen and light. Good grades of crude oil have a high gasoline content, and we are told that crude oil is millions of years old. A Model T can be run on some West Texas crude oil straight from the well. It won't run well, and the lower gravity fractions of the oil will not burn well and will accumulate in the crankcase, and carbon deposition will be a problem. But it will run. "Drip" gasoline, a natural condensate of "wet" natural gas that is produced along with crude oil from many wells, is a good fuel for a Model T, IF it is reasonabley free of sulphur, paraffin, and fine particles of dirt. Most of it isn't. Good clean drip gasoline will provide easy starting, good driveability, no carbon, no crankcase residue, low exhaust odor, and it is stable in storage. It is quite low in octane equivalency, but that is not an issue for a Model T in good running order.

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